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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old September 1 2013, 11:37 PM   #16
Trekker4747
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Re: Blu Rays Aspect Ratio Question

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
My choice would be 16:9 with minimal cropping. There are a few ways it could be done - CG to remove the lights and stands at the edge of shots, CG inserts to extend the frame where necessary, new SF shots (not too hard with extending the starscape background for space shots), subtly stretching the edges of shots and as a last resort, cropping.

Some of this would be expensive, but as digital tech gets cheaper it will become more viable.
You realize to do CGI stuff would take a lot of time, work and money to do right and even then it'll be limited in what it can accomplish. CGI isn't magic, it's a process that has limitations just like any other effects technique.

And it would, again, change the look and feel of the scene. This may seem like something but it could have big impacts on scenes in there series where a certain look or "feel" was achieved by being shot for 4:3 now being shot for 16:9.

The show was originally produced, shot, directed and presented for 4:3 viewing. That's how it is MEANT to be seen. That is how the original directors want you to see it. Stop trying to change that. I know we're not talking about fine film here or anything, by why not also complain about and demand cinematic classics like Casablanca use CGI or whatever else to make them 16:9? I mean, I need to fill my TV so who cares what it'll look like. Black bars! The scourge of TV-viewing. And colorize it too!

No. 4:3 is the Original Aspect Ratio of the show and it should be maintained.
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Old September 1 2013, 11:59 PM   #17
jimbotron
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Re: Blu Rays Aspect Ratio Question

In the VHS/DVD era, people who didn't know any better wanted 16x9 content cropped to fill 4x3 TVs. Now they want 4x3 content cropped to fill 16x9 TVs. Sigh, it never ends.
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Old September 2 2013, 12:03 AM   #18
Trekker4747
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Re: Blu Rays Aspect Ratio Question

jimbotron wrote: View Post
In the VHS/DVD era, people who didn't know any better wanted 16x9 content cropped to fill 4x3 TVs. Now they want 4x3 content cropped to fill 16x9 TVs. Sigh, it never ends.
We need TVs mad of some elastic material with an AI built into it that allows the TV to stretch and contort to match the content. We'll call it, "There! Now the screen is filled for you!"
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Old September 2 2013, 12:16 AM   #19
Beta-Z
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Re: Blu Rays Aspect Ratio Question

I'll never get it why people would want to watch TV shows in the wrong format.
It was intended, arranged and filmed to be watched in a 4:3 aspect ratio, so why rape that by zooming or streching it?
Just because they did this mistake with Seinfeld and other shows (bad enough) doesn't justify to publish all TV shows in the wrong picture format!! That is so beyond me, really..
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Old September 2 2013, 12:17 AM   #20
jimbotron
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Re: Blu Rays Aspect Ratio Question

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
We need TVs mad of some elastic material with an AI built into it that allows the TV to stretch and contort to match the content. We'll call it, "There! Now the screen is filled for you!"
Enthusiasts already do that with CIH projectors (constant image height).
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Old September 2 2013, 12:43 AM   #21
Robert Comsol
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Re: Blu Rays Aspect Ratio Question

otomo wrote: View Post
One question still unanswered: Was DS9 shot differently, or VOY? If they were shot the same then I hope they do keep it the same.
I do not recall exactly but IIRC beginning with the 4th season of DS9 (and the 5th of VOY) they started to protect for later 16:9 extraction, i.e. they shot in 4:3 but had a mask inside the viewfinder with a 16:9 frame.

Bob
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Old September 2 2013, 12:54 AM   #22
Maxwell Everett
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Re: Blu Rays Aspect Ratio Question

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
otomo wrote: View Post
One question still unanswered: Was DS9 shot differently, or VOY? If they were shot the same then I hope they do keep it the same.
I do not recall exactly but IIRC beginning with the 4th season of DS9 (and the 5th of VOY) they started to protect for later 16:9 extraction, i.e. they shot in 4:3 but had a mask inside the viewfinder with a 16:9 frame.

Bob
What happened was John Sprung, Director of Technology at Paramount Television (now CBS) had special dual aspect ratio ground glasses made by Panavision and tests were shot on the DS9 and VOY sets by Jonathan West and Marvin Rush. What they ultimately concluded was that it was a waste of time and they decided to keep shooting as they were (in 4-perf TV Trans) and to "Tilt & Scan" the shots in the future if asked to for a widescreen presentation. The ground glasses were given away and never used on an episode.
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Old September 2 2013, 01:18 AM   #23
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Re: Blu Rays Aspect Ratio Question

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
otomo wrote: View Post
One question still unanswered: Was DS9 shot differently, or VOY? If they were shot the same then I hope they do keep it the same.
I do not recall exactly but IIRC beginning with the 4th season of DS9 (and the 5th of VOY) they started to protect for later 16:9 extraction, i.e. they shot in 4:3 but had a mask inside the viewfinder with a 16:9 frame.
You are wrong. DS9 and VOY were never shot in widescreen. This has been talked about endlessly.
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Old September 2 2013, 02:52 AM   #24
Lance
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Re: Blu Rays Aspect Ratio Question

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
My choice would be 16:9 with minimal cropping. There are a few ways it could be done - CG to remove the lights and stands at the edge of shots, CG inserts to extend the frame where necessary, new SF shots (not too hard with extending the starscape background for space shots), subtly stretching the edges of shots and as a last resort, cropping.

Some of this would be expensive, but as digital tech gets cheaper it will become more viable.
This is one of my bug-bears about the internet. When people talk like CGI can just do anything. "Yeah, y'know, whatever. We can just, like, fix it with with CGI. That'd be cool, right?"

Putting aside the matter of resources (CGI still ain't cheap, like you say), I don't think it could be convincing either. Especially not when you've got a physical set that was made in 1986 and you're trying to blend it with 20XX technology. I've yet to see quantifiable proof that this can be done convincingly enough to look like an actual, real set. It'd just plain look weird.

Last edited by Lance; September 2 2013 at 03:18 AM.
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Old September 2 2013, 04:07 AM   #25
scotpens
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Re: Blu Rays Aspect Ratio Question

jimbotron wrote: View Post
In the VHS/DVD era, people who didn't know any better wanted 16x9 content cropped to fill 4x3 TVs.
Are you referring to "pan-and-scan," in which movies shot in CinemaScope or 70mm widescreen were cropped to fit the old 4x3 TV screens? Yeah, that sucked. But the only alternative back then was "letterboxing," which shrunk the image so small that it was sometimes unwatchable.

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
It was originally shot to be 4:3 if they did 16:9 they'd either have to do one of two things:

1. Simply use a wider film exposure. However, this may reveal crew, equipment, and other elements of production just off camera.
I don't see how that makes sense. If the show was filmed in standard 35mm Academy full frame (1.37:1), there wouldn't be anything to see beyond the 4:3 image (except perhaps for a tiny bit around the edges outside the "TV safe" area). Am I missing something here?
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Last edited by scotpens; September 2 2013 at 04:19 AM.
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Old September 2 2013, 04:42 AM   #26
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Re: Blu Rays Aspect Ratio Question

OAR TYVM.
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Old September 2 2013, 05:56 AM   #27
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Re: Blu Rays Aspect Ratio Question

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OAR TYVM.
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Old September 2 2013, 06:01 AM   #28
otomo
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Re: Blu Rays Aspect Ratio Question

Well I just was posing the "why" question. Now that I know the answer, I'm perfectly content to have these in 4:3 as long as this sort of clarity and vibrant colors are maintained in the future releases. Are there any youtube videos or anything on the process they used for the restoration?
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Old September 2 2013, 09:38 AM   #29
Robert Comsol
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Re: Blu Rays Aspect Ratio Question

scotpens wrote: View Post
I don't see how that makes sense. If the show was filmed in standard 35mm Academy full frame (1.37:1), there wouldn't be anything to see beyond the 4:3 image (except perhaps for a tiny bit around the edges outside the "TV safe" area). Am I missing something here?
What you can see you on screen is only the 4:3 extraction of a larger 4:3 camera negative area. The essential proposal was to keep the image height of the original 4:3 presentation and reveal the extra negative areas left and right ("title safe area" +) to yield a wider picture.

This would work where it counts (i.e. close-up shots where no studio equipment is cluttering these "undiscovered" areas left and right) but in total shots (e.g. bridge) you'd have to trim the top and bottom of the original 4:3 image (which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, IMHO).

Maxwell Everett has done plenty of graphics to illustrate the issue.

@ Dream

A friendly suggestion: Read before you reply

Bob
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Old September 2 2013, 10:28 AM   #30
Maxwell Everett
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Re: Blu Rays Aspect Ratio Question

otomo wrote: View Post
Are there any youtube videos or anything on the process they used for the restoration?
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