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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old September 1 2013, 10:55 PM   #256
Robert Comsol
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

zDarby wrote: View Post
If I were stipulating the ship, I'd probably have M/AM as my mains, Fusion as my auxiliary, Fission as my tertiary, emergency power and battery power would be based on either nuclear isomers or something similar to Metastabe Inner Molecular State (MIMS). Either way, battery output would be high-energy photos that would then need to be converted to electrical power.
Many thanks again, your feedback has been immensely helpful to make me adjust several of my assumptions.

zDarby wrote: View Post
But I think gamma-rays could still an interesting and (perhaps) important part of the picture, just not in the way you originally thought. Instead of being a cosmic wind or a method of transferring energy from the reactors to the nacelles, it becomes a way to "energize" the warp coils. And in TMP & TNG, this would be some of the blue glow from the nacelles.
This would explain the need and procedure to "re-energize" the engines in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" from the surface of Delta Vega. Perhaps they re-energized the warp coils by transmitting high intensity gamma radiation from Delta Vega pinpointed at the warp nacelles?
But then, the blue glow has nothing to do with the Cerenkov Effect?

zDarby wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Maybe there's still hope for Spock's recrystallization of dilithium crystals by means of gamma radiation.
This scene pissed me off when I first saw it --and I was still a teenager-- and it's not gotten better since.
Okay, never mind ST IV. Once we add the time paradox of Kirk's glasses ("a birthday gift from Dr. McCoy and it will be again - in the future") to the equation it becomes obvious that this film has to be enjoyed with grains of salt palatable only to the Salt Vampire.

Bob
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Old July 17 2014, 12:27 AM   #257
Robert Comsol
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Back to the original topic after a period of hibernation, I felt it necessary to mention that in another BBS thread - http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.ph...95#post9849295 - CorporalCaptain has suggested a rationalization for Scotty's "only impulse power" remark which I not only find fascinating but is one which I think has the true potential to become general consensus, especially after the issue had been extensively discussed in this thread.
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Old July 17 2014, 05:07 AM   #258
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Thanks, Robert Comsol. I assume that the post of mine you are referring to is this one.

I can't take credit for the idea, only for the economical suggested dialog change:
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
In hindsight, what it should have been wrote:
SCOTT: No question. When cloaked, their power is simple impulse.
Credit for the idea itself should be given to the staff of Galactic Designs and Productions (Michael McMaster, Jeff Maynard, John Upton, Geoffrey Mandel, Steven Robinson, Carl Dimsey, Jacob Greenspon, and Mark McMaster) for their Romulan "Bird of Prey" Cruiser blueprints (1977). From Sheet 2, General Note 6:

Galactic Designs and Productions wrote:
6. Ship's power is provided by twin matter-antimatter generators. Because of the tremendous power requirements of the warp engines, invisibility cloak, and the plasma weapon, they cannot be used simultaneously. When the ship is invisible it must move under impulse power. At warp speed the weapon can be fired without power accumulators. To fire full power it has to go sub-light. It can slowly store power in accumulators while invisible but must become visible to fire.
Genius. (The blueprints were linked to on post #2 of this thread.)
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Old July 17 2014, 09:07 AM   #259
Robert Comsol
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Yes, that was the post I was referring to. Good to see that the "old guard" came to that conclusion, probably based on the interpretation you provided.

But since they didn't / "couldn't" elaborate on their thought process, we previously lacked the context to understand how they arrived at their conclusion (provided we had noticed that, first), until you mentioned it. I think that accounts for something.

Bob
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Old July 17 2014, 03:31 PM   #260
Mytran
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Since the other thread was originally about the culture of the Romulans, I'll post my comments here. I too have read those plans but never fully realised the genius of Remark #6. It truly covers all the bases! I've never subscribed to the "Romulans have no FTL" theory since it is so patently absurd (look how a non-FTL Enterprise fared in combat in EOT for an example about how the war would have really gone). However, many elements of the BOP's pursuit in BOT suggest a slower than light chase - the motion through the comet being the most obvious example.

Great stuff!
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Old July 17 2014, 08:47 PM   #261
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Many, but not all. And how could Scotty know how fast the enemy can move under cloak? He wouldn't have been able to observe the vessel under cloak, by definition - his powerplant type and capacity assessments would supposedly come from the moments the ship was briefly visible.

Scotty could also be basing his assessment on the so far observed movements of the enemy - that is, the brief observations of the vessel's presence at various locations separated by the invisible transit runs. But that would be awfully unhelpful and speculative of the engineer, whose contribution should come from understanding the engineering aspects of the opponent. Not to mention that said movements actually support the idea of at least moderate FTL performance.

If anything, the heroes at that point would appear to agree on the enemy ship being immensely powerful - capable of firing powerful weapons, capable of running the supposedly power-hungry cloak. While it's evident that only one of those two feats can be accomplished at a time, pairing warp drive with either of the superskills would appear to be easy enough - the Enterprise does not have such powerful weapons and her CSO is impressed by the energy requirements of the cloak, yet the Enterprise can maintain high warp, so high warp apparently does not call for such extreme power, and thus could be added to either plasma gun firing or cloaking.

Sure, there's nothing to say that the power balance indicated in the McMaster plans couldn't be true (and I'm eager to believe said balance to really be what applies to this Romulan ship). But that's not something Scotty could divine at that point.

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Old July 17 2014, 08:58 PM   #262
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Timo wrote: View Post
Many, but not all. And how could Scotty know how fast the enemy can move under cloak? He wouldn't have been able to observe the vessel under cloak, by definition - his powerplant type and capacity assessments would supposedly come from the moments the ship was briefly visible.

Scotty could also be basing his assessment on the so far observed movements of the enemy - that is, the brief observations of the vessel's presence at various locations separated by the invisible transit runs. But that would be awfully unhelpful and speculative of the engineer, whose contribution should come from understanding the engineering aspects of the opponent. Not to mention that said movements actually support the idea of at least moderate FTL performance.

If anything, the heroes at that point would appear to agree on the enemy ship being immensely powerful - capable of firing powerful weapons, capable of running the supposedly power-hungry cloak. While it's evident that only one of those two feats can be accomplished at a time, pairing warp drive with either of the superskills would appear to be easy enough - the Enterprise does not have such powerful weapons and her CSO is impressed by the energy requirements of the cloak, yet the Enterprise can maintain high warp, so high warp apparently does not call for such extreme power, and thus could be added to either plasma gun firing or cloaking.

Sure, there's nothing to say that the power balance indicated in the McMaster plans couldn't be true. But that's not something Scotty could divine at that point.

Timo Saloniemi
...which IMO calls into question the original line of dialog, as well. How would Scotty know that their power is only simple impulse and be so sure about it, at all?

I think it's reasonable that Spock and Scotty are basing their opinions on not only what they observe, but what their training and experience tell them. Scotty knows that the BoP became visible to fire on the outpost, and presumably they knew how fast it was going, too. He can estimate the total power that the BoP can generate, from the assumption that the lion's share of power output was used to fire the weapon. From knowing what sort of power is needed for invisibility, I don't think it's a stupid premise that he can see that their generators just can't do that and warp at the time, especially if all the other transient observations they have fall into line with predictions according to such an envelope.
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Old July 17 2014, 09:50 PM   #263
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Great discussion, insight, speculation and conclusions. Thought provoking indeed!
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Old July 17 2014, 10:11 PM   #264
Timo
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

...which IMO calls into question the original line of dialog, as well. How would Scotty know that their power is only simple impulse and be so sure about it, at all?

I think it's reasonable that Spock and Scotty are basing their opinions on not only what they observe, but what their training and experience tell them.
Agreed - and by the same token, Kirk due to his experience probably knows fully well what weight to put on Scotty's brash "No question about it!" claims... They have good odds of hitting close to the mark, and that suffices.

But if everybody tacitly understands that Scotty speaks about the limitations of the enemy when invisible, why would the discussion fail to cover whether the enemy will stay invisible? If the speed limitation is dependent on visibility, the key tactical question now would be "How to keep them invisible, and still manage to hit them?"... Stiles' comments may derail the discussion for a moment, but we soon see the arguments concluded without the issue of a visible but fast enemy addressed at all.

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Old July 17 2014, 11:03 PM   #265
Robert Comsol
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Timo wrote: View Post
But if everybody tacitly understands that Scotty speaks about the limitations of the enemy when invisible, why would the discussion fail to cover whether the enemy will stay invisible?
I think I finally got it, sorry if you felt misunderstood last year.

I see your point, for a tactical briefing Scotty only looks at the current "picture" of a cloaked ship. It's a little too much assuming on his / their part, that the ship will do everything to stay cloaked.

Other than that I'd like to shift your attention on that strange "show & share" scene in the briefing room where Spock illustrates the Romulans' weapon power by smashing a piece of cast rodinium from the outpost's outer protective shield...why did they stop for the outpost collecting samples?

Or did they actually stop by to recover some kind of unmentioned flight recorder that contained plenty of information on the Romulan ship?

Although the Earth outposts had monitoring equipment, it apparently had limited visual range, so that the Romulan ship warped there close enough and then went invisible once coming into that range for its stealth attack.

But if you think this through these outpost guys had a shitty job. In case a Romulan invasion fleet ever came into their visual range, all these guys could do was to alert Starfleet before being killed by such an invasion fleet.

It's also somewhat strange that Hansen had been "alerted" by one of the other outposts, but didn't send out a distress signal before he himself was being attacked.

Bob
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Old July 17 2014, 11:14 PM   #266
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

WHh wouldn't they slow down and beam in some debris in hopes of getting a hint about the "enormous power" enemy weapon? If they didn't do it, they'd be negligent.
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Old July 17 2014, 11:18 PM   #267
Timo
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Great idea about them picking up a recorder! (I just feel Spock would have said "Telemetry suggest" rather than "Lab theorizes", then...)

But the outposts wouldn't suffer from those limitations you worry about in a model where the enemy can warp in under cloak and the recorders never visually witnessed a warp-in. They would do perfectly fine against visible ships, at warp or impulse. So well, perhaps, that it would be deeply indoctrinated into the base commanders that no revealing transmissions be sent under any circumstances short of the Last Trump. Any conventional threat could be assessed before it came into weapons range, and a choice made on whether to tell Earth that the enemy has finally attacked in such a force as to overwhelm the bases soon, or to rely on stealth, armor and armaments and deal with the enemy without compromising that first aspect of protection.

And yes, stopping for a while didn't appear to be a problem: the heroes were confident they could follow the invisible ship anyway. All the invisibility seemed to be good for was for fouling fine targeting; the general movements of the ship could still be followed with various sensors.

Up until that comet encounter, that is. But the "We grow visible" scene suggests that invisibility comes in degrees, and is dependent on power allocation. Perhaps the ability of the enemy to track ship movements would be acceptable for the Romulans when the only known enemy in the vicinity had just been reduced to dust, but a dial would be turned when a new opponent was detected and the ship would grow more invisible.

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Old July 17 2014, 11:38 PM   #268
Robert Comsol
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Maurice wrote: View Post
WHh wouldn't they slow down and beam in some debris in hopes of getting a hint about the "enormous power" enemy weapon? If they didn't do it, they'd be negligent.
Good point, apparently they could track the Romulan ship and still collect some samples. Had the visual scanning range ever been established in comparison to the transporter range?

Another point suggesting warp drive capability, IMHO, is the opening dialogue of BoT which I think we didn't examine last year:

SPOCK [OC]: Still no answer from Earth Outpost number 2, Captain, and now number 3's gone silent.
KIRK: Maintain course to Outpost 4. Keep me informed. Kirk out.


Seconds later:

SPOCK [OC]: Earth Outpost 4 reports they're under attack. A space vessel, identity unknown.

Considering it took the Romulan ship apparently at least several minutes to reload, the Enterprise was obviously not in permanent touch with Outpost 3.

Yet, I guess it's fair to assume that the outposts were separated by plenty of space between them.

Bob
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Old July 18 2014, 12:57 AM   #269
Timo
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

The one possibility we overlook there is that the Praetor actually sent several ships, in a coordinated raid... Only, coordination of cloaked vessels must have been quite difficult, and none of the commanders could have relied on help from the others.

Barring that alternate take, the initial minutes of the episode are certainly our best window into the speeds involved, as we see a very good graphic representation of the distances between the blinking-out outposts, and of the speed of the hero ship. Unless we assume this graphic was distorted somehow, for user convenience.

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Old July 18 2014, 01:13 AM   #270
Robert Comsol
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Timo wrote: View Post
The one possibility we overlook there is that the Praetor actually sent several ships, in a coordinated raid...
Interesting hypothesis, but how do we rationalize this:

STILES: These are Romulans! You run away from them and you guarantee war. They'll be back. Not just one ship but with everything they've got.

Possible that the trail of Earth outpost destruction and the time in which it occurred did help them to arrive at some of their conclusions.

Bob
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