RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,565
Posts: 5,423,233
Members: 24,809
Currently online: 476
Newest member: Dobian

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12

New Wizkids Attack Wing Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Coto Drama Sold To Fox
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Braga Inks Deal
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Remastered Original Series Re-release
By: T'Bonz on Sep 11

UK Trek Ships Calendar Debuts
By: T'Bonz on Sep 10


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 1 2013, 08:56 PM   #46
Grant
Fleet Captain
 
Grant's Avatar
 
Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Genocide!!
Grant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 1 2013, 09:25 PM   #47
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

...Or, as originally defined, the killing of a lot of Jews (R. Lemkin, 1944). It's a pretty racist concept, actually, making some victims sound more important than others.

From that date on, it has been sort of anti-defined, coming to mean anything and everything from the negating of a biosystem to the making of a Star Trek movie the fans weren't expecting. Taken literally, Scotty wouldn't have killed a genus, as Eminians appeared to be your basic Homo sapiens just like so many "alien" species out there. From the looks of it, even their culture would probably have lived on, on Vendikar.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 1 2013, 09:27 PM   #48
Gov Kodos
Admiral
 
Gov Kodos's Avatar
 
Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston
Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
It's not useless. The planet's threat to Federation shipping will come to an end. That's what they get for messing with greater powers. The fools were lucky they didn't get the chance to try this shit on the Klingons.
BillJ wrote: View Post

The problem being that they didn't have some type of waiver system built into their war "treaty" to cover such an eventuality. Kirk would have happily left but was forced into settling their war for them because of it.
Eminiar and Vendikar were not a threat to shipping. They posted a big "Do Not Enter. This Means You" sign in the form of Code 7-10, a code that is apparently an internationally know standard.
No one has to put up with being shot at their warnings be damned. Their gameboy war didn't have to target non-combatants. If they want to shoot at other folks, then they can expect those folks to shoot back.
__________________
We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! Endora, Bewitched
Gov Kodos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 1 2013, 09:32 PM   #49
Grant
Fleet Captain
 
Grant's Avatar
 
Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Why do so many wimps want to pretend Kirk & Scott wouldn't destroy "...the entire inhabited surface of the planet!"

In TOS they were badass and took no guff. You shoot at us or hold hostage a few of our people and we will destory the surface of your world--that gets them off their butts and taking notice! Nothing like making them think of their women and children to make them give in.
Grant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 1 2013, 09:46 PM   #50
Opus
Commodore
 
Opus's Avatar
 
Location: Bloom County
Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Grant wrote: View Post
Genocide!!
__________________
Now that I've seen it, and have also had time to mellow, to really think about it, I now find it absolutely, unbearably repulsive in every way except for some of the acting. - about The Wrath of Khan. Interstat, Issue 62: 1982
Opus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 1 2013, 09:47 PM   #51
Grant
Fleet Captain
 
Grant's Avatar
 
Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

What's a real laugh is that scott says "all cities and installation have been fed into our fire control systems.."

Now presumably, they would NOT destroy the council chamber because if they did they might kill kirk & co. or because they would need to be sure Anon-7 would be alive to give in and agree to release kirk.

So in effect by ensuring that Anon-7 would be the last target destroyed--they gave him the power to let the world's cities and people die while safe in his council chamber next to his hostages.

What if he was one of those really crummy leaders who wouldn't mind seeing millions of his people die to test the resolve of an adversary?

"Okay, okay, i give up, now that you've killed millions and I'm about the only one left--you can have your captain."
"On the bright side we have met our quote as far as Vendikar is concerned."

Kirk was all concerned for the life of Mea, but that wouldn't stop him from wiping out millions to prove his point!

TOS= badass

Genocide!!
Grant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 1 2013, 09:54 PM   #52
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

What if he was one of those really crummy leaders who wouldn't mind seeing millions of his people die to test the resolve of an adversary?
The cliched resolution to that would be the heroes taping the leader's defiant words and playing those back to his citizens, who would be less than willing to continue to support the leadership of the man who just called them "Worthless cattle destined to die anyway"...

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 1 2013, 10:41 PM   #53
The Old Mixer
Vice Admiral
 
The Old Mixer's Avatar
 
Location: Connecticut
Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

It wouldn't have hurt the Eminians to just come out and tell potential visitors what the risks were, either. They were extremely coy about it, considering it was such serious business.
The Old Mixer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 1 2013, 10:46 PM   #54
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

We don't have a very good idea of the true potential of visitations here. Perhaps Starfleet was the only organization at the time capable of sending ships in this system at all (mature superspecies notwithstanding, as they wouldn't have truck with Eminian silliness anyway)?

The likely mechanism of ship loss here, judging by all this Treaty Port talk, is that the two planets failed to assist ships in distress that sought refuge in the system. Basically, failing to help is an offense that gets you jailed regardless of privacy or property concerns; Starfleet's decision to slag the planets would probably have been met with resounding approval in the wider interstellar community.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 1 2013, 10:53 PM   #55
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

I'm sure that Scott would've liquified a few uninhabited areas first to see if he could get them to cry uncle.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 1 2013, 10:59 PM   #56
The Old Mixer
Vice Admiral
 
The Old Mixer's Avatar
 
Location: Connecticut
Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

^Basically what I was getting at. He could have targeted infrastructure more than populations, and effectively bombarded them back to the stone age without eradicating the population.
The Old Mixer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 1 2013, 11:05 PM   #57
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

...We know Scotty was capable of firing with impunity: his threat continued to be in force after he had taken the ship outside the range of Eminian weapons. So there would have been no hurry as such. For all we know, GO24 always takes weeks to execute if only one starship is available!

It did take a pretty large fleet to actually slag a smallish planet's surface in "The Die is Cast", and this 24th century fleet of at least 20 ships and possibly more was estimated to need an hour for destroying the crust (although they ended up doing 30% of the job with their first volley already - go figure). But even at his most murderous, Scotty would probably have settled for simply destroying all the cities and leaving the mountain ranges be. And destroying just the essential infrastructure might not take much time at all.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 2 2013, 12:26 AM   #58
Grant
Fleet Captain
 
Grant's Avatar
 
Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Scott + murderous = "destroy all the cities but leave mountain ranges unharmed"

TOS = badass

Genocide!!
Grant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 2 2013, 12:35 AM   #59
Lazergazer
Ensign
 
Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Blowing up a starship requires triple confirmation because there can be triple confirmation - i.e., all concerned parties are already there.

In a situation like this, there's no time to call up Starfleet for a chat or debate, much less "multiple methods of confirmation and cross checking". That is probably why they have a General Order.

Nothing about the way the episode was filmed made me think it was intended to be a bluff.

MarsWeeps wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I never thought it was suppose to be a bluff. I never understood people who watched the episode that thought it was a bluff. I think it was more wishful thinking because they didn't want their heroes to be making those types of decisions.
I actually never thought it was a bluff but this thread got me thinking and I allowed for the possibility of a bluff. In fact, the more I think about it, the more a bluff makes sense. A captain has to have 2 other officers agree to set the auto destruct on a Starship but a simple order from him is enough to exterminate an entire planet? I don't think so.

If such an order actually exists, I would envision it coming from Starfleet with multiple methods of confirmation and cross checking and even then, it would require 2 other command officers to agree to it.
Lazergazer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 2 2013, 12:44 AM   #60
Grant
Fleet Captain
 
Grant's Avatar
 
Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

They are far from home and not always in contact with HQ--I see no reason they wouldn't give a stasrship captain the authority to wipe out a planet that took Fed hostages and force their way into the their space because they weren't providing assistance to damaged starships.

"Mommie why is the space ship destroying our city?" "Because our evil leaders are xenophobes who aren't decent enough to help those in distress."


TOS = badass

Grant is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:29 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.