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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old September 1 2013, 09:24 AM   #31
CommishSleer
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Push The Button wrote: View Post

Scotty, being the man that he was, knew that Kirk had a really good reason to give that order, and that it wasn't given lightly or for a trivial reason. A lesser man may have second-guessed Kirk, or simply wimped out and refused to carry out such an order, but Scotty stood by his captain.
Scotty knew in his heart of hearts that he wasn't going to have to carry out that order. He knew Kirk was going to resolve the situation. He knows Kirk's that awesome. Everyone should know that by now after 40 years.
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Old September 1 2013, 09:55 AM   #32
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Push The Button wrote: View Post

Scotty, being the man that he was, knew that Kirk had a really good reason to give that order, and that it wasn't given lightly or for a trivial reason. A lesser man may have second-guessed Kirk, or simply wimped out and refused to carry out such an order, but Scotty stood by his captain.
Scotty knew in his heart of hearts that he wasn't going to have to carry out that order. He knew Kirk was going to resolve the situation. He knows Kirk's that awesome. Everyone should know that by now after 40 years.
I imagine he hoped so. The episode takes the MAD doctrine (mutually assured destruction) and turns it on its head here. The two planets were a danger to anyone who came near over the last centuries of their Gameboy war. They'd made the war manageable, perhaps even a grim population control system that kept off the burdens of overpopulation. We have no idea how fairly their system selected people for the disintegration booths so who knows whether they were doing some social culling through this process. Kirk and co. brought real war back to them and real planetary obliteration, whether from Enterprise within the hour or Vendikar down the road. Kirk assumed, and was born out right, that folks of any small sense would back down from letting such firepower loose.
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Old September 1 2013, 11:49 AM   #33
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

JT Perfecthair wrote: View Post
In Tase of Armageddon we see Kirk yell at Scott over an open communicator to prepare for General Order 24. Later we hear Scott say that the entire inhabited surface of Eminiar 7 would be destroyed. Would they have done so?
I don't think General Order 24 was about destroying the entire inhabited surface of Eminiar 7. General Order 24 was about BLUFFING to destroy the entire inhabited surface.

If time had run out, we would hear Scotty say "Well, they didn't fall for that bluff, now what?"
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Old September 1 2013, 12:15 PM   #34
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

I'm sure Starfleet has both sorts of orders: one for terminating a planet, another for bluffing on that. The second really needs the first in order to work...

Whether GO24 is the one about bluffing or terminating, it's more difficult to tell. We never see or hear what Scotty does or discusses with the crew; all we see is his "public face", his threats to Anan 7.

How did Fox beam down when shields were raised? Well, funnily enough, there's nothing in TOS about this being impossible! It's the beaming up that can't be done when shields are raised. One also has to wonder how Scotty could fire phasers without dropping shields - and perhaps the explanation is one and the same: shields only stop stuff from coming in, not from going out.

How did he bypass alarms, then? Well, he did outrank Kirk, at least in his own opinion, and at least to a degree allowing him to transport down using Kirk's hardware. He could simply have told the transporter operator to bypass the alarms for him. Or then he or more probably his aide would have had the necessary skills for bypassing them.

As for the illegality angle, this seems to be confusing "illegal" and "wrong", as well as "legal" and "right". All war is illegal: no nation's laws allow for armed intruders to come traipsing in. The Allies were breaking lots of German laws in opposing Hitler, the legal and sovereign ruler of not just his own country, but (after the fact) all those lands he had conquered. Doesn't mean the Allies were wrong.

As for international law, we don't know if such exists in TOS. Even if it does, the one Kirk's people have signed would obviously contain clauses allowing for Kirk's people to do as they please in cases like this. If it didn't, Starfleet would just wipe its collective warp cores with the paper.

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Old September 1 2013, 01:54 PM   #35
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
A textbook example of 23rd century "cowboy diplomacy".
That is the best kind of diplomacy there is.
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Old September 1 2013, 02:12 PM   #36
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

MarsWeeps wrote: View Post
JT Perfecthair wrote: View Post
In Tase of Armageddon we see Kirk yell at Scott over an open communicator to prepare for General Order 24. Later we hear Scott say that the entire inhabited surface of Eminiar 7 would be destroyed. Would they have done so?
I don't think General Order 24 was about destroying the entire inhabited surface of Eminiar 7. General Order 24 was about BLUFFING to destroy the entire inhabited surface.

If time had run out, we would hear Scotty say "Well, they didn't fall for that bluff, now what?"
Let us consult the Sacred Texts....

In reviewing the Revised Final Draft shooting script for "A Taste of Armageddon," dated December 12, 1966 written by Robert Hamner and Gene L. Coon, just after Kirk orders General Order 24 and says "I didn't start it, Councilman. But I'm liable to finish it," there is actually another scene that didnt make it into the final cut of the episode:


INT. BRIDGE

Scott is sitting silently in the command seat. McCoy stands
by, staring sympathetically at him. There is a long moment
of silence.

McCOY

Are you going to do it?

SCOTT

You heard the captain. The order was clear.

McCOY

They'll die down there.

SCOTT

Blast you, McCoy! Don't you think I know that?

McCoy stares at him, shakes his head, turns away and stands
there silently, staring at nothing. The bridge is totally silent.


It doesn't look like it was supposed to have been a bluff.
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Old September 1 2013, 02:36 PM   #37
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

I never thought it was suppose to be a bluff. I never understood people who watched the episode that thought it was a bluff. I think it was more wishful thinking because they didn't want their heroes to be making those types of decisions.
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Old September 1 2013, 03:11 PM   #38
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

BillJ wrote: View Post
I never thought it was suppose to be a bluff. I never understood people who watched the episode that thought it was a bluff. I think it was more wishful thinking because they didn't want their heroes to be making those types of decisions.
I actually never thought it was a bluff but this thread got me thinking and I allowed for the possibility of a bluff. In fact, the more I think about it, the more a bluff makes sense. A captain has to have 2 other officers agree to set the auto destruct on a Starship but a simple order from him is enough to exterminate an entire planet? I don't think so.

If such an order actually exists, I would envision it coming from Starfleet with multiple methods of confirmation and cross checking and even then, it would require 2 other command officers to agree to it.
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Old September 1 2013, 03:13 PM   #39
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

I think it was a bluff only in the sense that Kirk was confident that it wouldn't come to that. Call it leverage.

Had the Eminians (?) made the wrong decision, and Scotty started the bombardment, I'm sure they would have quickly been begging for mercy. If Kirk and Spock were dead, accepting their surrender would be Scotty's call, as he'd be captain.
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Old September 1 2013, 05:34 PM   #40
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
It's not useless. The planet's threat to Federation shipping will come to an end. That's what they get for messing with greater powers. The fools were lucky they didn't get the chance to try this shit on the Klingons.
BillJ wrote: View Post
RPJOB wrote: View Post
We may not understand how their virtual war worked but it was their system and the only casualties are those ships that ignored the code 7-10.
The problem being that they didn't have some type of waiver system built into their war "treaty" to cover such an eventuality. Kirk would have happily left but was forced into settling their war for them because of it.
Eminiar and Vendikar were not a threat to shipping. They posted a big "Do Not Enter. This Means You" sign in the form of Code 7-10, a code that is apparently an internationally know standard.

KIRK: Code seven-ten means under no circumstances are we to approach that planet. No circumstances what so ever.
FOX: You will disregard that signal, Captain.
KIRK: Mister Fox, it is their planet.
FOX: Captain, in the past twenty years, thousands of lives have been lost in this quadrant. Lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I'm here to get it.
KIRK: By disregarding code seven-ten, you might well involve us in an interplanetary war.
FOX: I'm quite prepared to take that risk.
KIRK: You are. I'm thinking about this ship, my crew.
Fox is looking for a port, presumably for search & rescue or emergency repairs as well as trade. A Treaty Port is also one that is imposed by a more powerful power against a lesser one, essentially giving them no choice but to accept.

Kirk could have refused to follow Fox's order. It wouldn't be the first time and he'd be in the right.

As further proof that Eminiar wasn't to blame for the loss of life in the quadrant let's look at this.

SPOCK: We know very little about them. Their civilisation is advanced. They've had space flight for several centuries, but they've never ventured beyond their own solar system. When first contacted more than fifty years ago, Eminiar Seven was at war with its nearest neighbour.
They've never ventured beyond their own solar system. So they are not attacking anyone. We know that they are at war. Again, that does not involve the Federation. The Federation are the ones that ignore the warning and place themselves in a war that they know nothing about.

Eminair and Vendikar are simply sitting in the own system, telling everyone else to stay out in no uncertain terms. It's their system. What they do there is none of our business. We may find it appalling but it's not for us to judge.

Unless the Federation is going to take it upon themselves to stop every war that they come across then they have no business getting involved in this one.
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Old September 1 2013, 05:43 PM   #41
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

You're under the assumption that every craft is going to understand what a code seven-ten is. Plus, there could be times where someone is simply forced to go into the system due to damage or some other emergency.

It was idiotic not to have exceptions built into the treaty for non-combatants.
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Old September 1 2013, 05:46 PM   #42
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

In addition, Kirk was never really shown to be a regular rule-breaker in TOS.
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Old September 1 2013, 05:51 PM   #43
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

RPJOB wrote:
Eminair and Vendikar are simply sitting in the own system, telling everyone else to stay out in no uncertain terms.
When you put it that way, Eminiar VII sounds a lot like North Korea. Maybe the people of Vendikar were more reasonable.
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Last edited by Dr. Sevrin; September 1 2013 at 05:53 PM. Reason: crosspost editing
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Old September 1 2013, 08:35 PM   #44
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

BillJ wrote: View Post
You're under the assumption that every craft is going to understand what a code seven-ten is. Plus, there could be times where someone is simply forced to go into the system due to damage or some other emergency.

It was idiotic not to have exceptions built into the treaty for non-combatants.
Well, wouldn't there be beacons set up saying "Listen, we aren't supposed to go in there."?

The Feds were the ones violating these worlds' Sovereignty, it's more or less a Grey area that the story doesn't draw much attention to.
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Old September 1 2013, 08:40 PM   #45
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

jpv2000 wrote: View Post
Mysterion wrote: View Post
I've never had the impression that Kirk and scott were bluffing, and believe that Scott would have indeed carried out Kirk's order if required.
Same here.
Agree.
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