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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

View Poll Results: Voth vs. Borg
Voth 12 37.50%
Borg 15 46.88%
Dunno 5 15.63%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 27 2013, 09:36 AM   #31
Guy Gardener
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Re: Voth vs. the Borg

Predestination doesn't work like that often sometimes.

New timelines are created with extra past that spins out a different future.

So second time around in the new time line it seems like predestination, even though what's going to happen has absolutely no effect on the past since the poop that already went down was all tourists from a different timeline.
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Old August 27 2013, 11:48 AM   #32
Lighthammer
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Re: Voth vs. the Borg

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Predestination doesn't work like that often sometimes.

New timelines are created with extra past that spins out a different future.

So second time around in the new time line it seems like predestination, even though what's going to happen has absolutely no effect on the past since the poop that already went down was all tourists from a different timeline.
Well, the only way this theory has held weight in traditional Science Fiction that would explain this away 'easily' (and lets be honest, no one in the Trek universe has yet dared try to tackle this one) is temporal fractal theory which is what Sliders is based on (hey, lets drag that series into another thread!).

That is to say, the theory we'd have to work under is that every time a decision is made, the universe splits into parallel universes where there are only slight variations based on the quantum vibration of that universe.

That would mean Admiral Janeway actually travels from a parallel universe to a very similar, almost identical universe and made her changes; though in theory, if we'd accept this to be true, Harry shouldn't have cared because the Temporal Prime Directive unless it also 'now' covers making adjustments in different quantum universes.

I never quite liked this theory because String Theory illustrates the universe PROBABLY doesn't an infinite expansion room to keep plowing out new quantum universes each time someone makes a different decision would cause infinite expansion and would essentially explode the world out of Chell's Big Bang theory (no pun intended); I could see world changing decisions causing fracturing, but then even String Theory lends itself to the concept of intelligent design on some level at that point and although I'm not against the concept of God, that level of intelligent design just seems too "manipulative" to not be governed by an intelligence and seems like it has to fall under a set of rules we don't yet understand possibly having something to do with quantum cubits, natural splits, or something weird like that :-\

But heck, lets take a step back and remember that according to modern time travel theory (this is real science, not sci-fi) to time travel, we currently believe you need to simultaneously reach absolute zero and absolute hot at the same time. If Janeway did manage to go back in time, realistically, she's a pile of ashes along with that Klingon ship that tried to follow her and Voyager is still really still stuck in the DQ
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Old August 27 2013, 12:46 PM   #33
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Re: Voth vs. the Borg

Well if they tried to travel through time in real space, sure. If you stay in regular space, one can't even travel faster than light. They obviously found a strata of subspace where it's common to reach absolute cold and absolute heat simultaneously... Possibly even "subtime".

TNG Parallels.

Worf does Sliders.

How could you have forgotten Riker's MASSIVE beard?

Quantum Realities are not the same as alternate timelines, since everyone from each quantum reality has different signature that thumb prints them from a specific quantum reality.

The Mirror Universe from TOS and DS9 was possibly a Quantum Reality?
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Old August 27 2013, 05:50 PM   #34
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Re: Voth vs. the Borg

I actually was going to point out Parallels as case and point, but I managed to forget too, lol.

I've always accepted the Mirror Universe as different quantum universes, honestly.

As for warp, based on Einstein's theory and most other theories I am familiar and as far as I understand them (and by no stretch of the imagination am I physicists or even aspiring one), I've always understood that faster then light travel is possible but the amount of energy required pushes it into the "unfeasible" range. I've always just taken as a forgone conclusion that Star Trek has overcome this. Not to mention a recent article I read (I forgot where at this point) suggested there may be a great shortcut to warp travel making it more viable then space folding again.
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Old August 27 2013, 11:51 PM   #35
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Re: Voth vs. the Borg

It requires infinite energy to travel at light speed in ordinary space.

The faster you go the more your mass increases the more energy you need to travel faster... Oh and time seems to be slowing down the faster you go, so to not go more slower the faster you go, you have to pile yet more planets into your boiler.

Warp bubbles simulate a different version of space where the physics are different inside the bubble.

You actually have to go to a different dimension to travel at transwarp.

That has me suspect that a transwarp corridor is the opposite of a warp bubble. It's really a real space tube. Creating an area of real space inside transwarp space where we can exist without bad transwarpy things happening.
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Old August 28 2013, 04:50 AM   #36
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Re: Voth vs. the Borg

This is actually the best way I've seen it explained and this is in a round about way the way its largely explained in the TNG Tech Manual:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fPmCKt48Zw

Michu Kuko had a highlight on new faster then light speed travels in a somewhat recent show (and hell, by somewhat recent, now that I think about it, it was actually last year around Halloween because I remember listening to it on the way to a haunt, but less I digress) but there are actually some really new theories that involve sting theory, though I don't think I can articulate them without burying myself in some wiki articles for a day or so (which mind you, I LOVE doing, but I need to see if I can remember which thread to start on and find some time!)

IIRC the new theory doesn't actually have anything to do with pushing yourself outside the current space domain, or into a subspace domain (which now, I think we seem to be skeptical exists) where energy can either be expended at different levels or thrust requires less energy. It doesn't even involve playing around with excessive amounts of energy. It has to do with the whole idea that the universe is wrapped inside the quantum membrane and actually pushing against that on a quantum level to create speed similar to plucking the strings on a stringed instrument such as a guitar.
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Old August 31 2013, 04:53 PM   #37
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Re: Voth vs. the Borg

Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: View Post
Don't the Voth have personal phasing cloaks, and can transport entire starships at once?

The Borg don't seem to have those things, so it's unlikely they've been successful in their assimilation attempts.
Yes, from what we saw of the Voth, they were technologically superior to the Borg. I have suspected there may be reasons Borg space in Seasons 3-4 had borders where they were. *Something* is keeping the Borg from venturing much further outward from "Scorpion" space. The only people with fear of the Borg were that one Sakari mining colony that went underground. The Voth have so much the Borg would love to get their hands on, the Nyrians had advanced transporters (Borg transporters are only close range, Nyrians could teleport, albeit one at a time, over a distance of 10 ly). Nyrians also had some advanced tech with accessing computer databases across light years and decrypting it. And they are almost on the doorstep of the Borg there too. I suspect that something was the Voth broadly roaming across that band of space between the Nekrit Expanse and Borg space. As noted, they have been space faring for millions upon millions of years. The Borg Collective was very small 1000 years ago. They did seem to be growing rapidly of late though (probably critical mass with numbers and new technology acquired from others. That probably is what led to Arturis' race finally falling). We still haven't seen what the Borg might use those tactical cubes for, seen in "Unimatrix Zero" (I don't think it's merely precautions after Species 8472. Seven was familiar with it and the sense I got from it was that it wasn't some new invention). Each quadrant is huge. There are obviously races, some empires, more powerful than the Borg who, while they may lack the numbers, may have a technological edge over the Borg. It seems a bit naive to think the Borg may be the most advanced race in the galaxy. Most numerous... possibly.

On the other side, the decisive Borg border seems to be 50~100 ly before the drop-off point in "The Gift". There's a transwarp conduit through part of the region (B'omar/"The Raven") but no other Season 4 race shows fear of Borg and later on, Seven if unfamiliar with some species (like the Dream Aliens, who most certainly would be assimilated because the Borg would most definately be interested in their Unconscious/Subconscious Collective). I suspect the Krenim form a barrier on that side. The Borg have advanced sensors. They likely could pick up all the temporal anomalies around Krenim space. Annorax was on a quest to get the empire back to 100%. If the Borg ever encroached on the Krenim Imperium, Annorax would have blasted the Borg world of origin out of the space time continuum. Their weapons and temporal science would obviously be of interest to the Borg but if the Borg detected races blinking out of existence, they might be cautious to venture there.

LOL at people claiming they may be unworthy of assimilation. Some are, like the Kazon, but if races offer something, technological or physical (big dumb brutes were sometimes mentioned as making good tactical drones), they will be assimilated. Hard to tell what makes the Borg to go all in (like on the Brunali) vs. just casual assimilation (like the Norcadians). We've seen many races in Voyager with *something* worth assimilating. Even the annoying munchkins from "Virtuoso", the Qomar had something of value (complex algorithms, some of the most advanced mathematical skills seen in Star Trek). Interestingly, many of them apparently haven't been decimated by the Borg. Overall though, the Borg don't seem to explore very far from their transwarp conduits. That's how Brunali gets decimated but Norcadia and other worlds they casually assimilate some vessels from but don't go all out.

BTW, all species get numbered. Even the Kazon had a number. Species number seems to not be species of value necessarily; it's the Borg catalog of species they encountered. Even some primitive societies had members assimilated (the ones with the Omega stories). The Borg probably assimilate the unlucky aliens who are the first the Borg have ever encountered of their race. Species 8472 was given a number and they obviously could not be assimilated.

The thing about Borg space is I have wondered how many holdouts like Arturis' race were there? Races that were more advanced but besieged, fighting a gradually losing battle? And how many worlds of pre-warp civilizations or primitive societies are there in Borg space, left untouched because they don't have any real value or minerals to plunder (which was probably why those 2 Borg ships went to the Nekrit Expanse. Most planets encountered there were mining worlds and the Fair Trade station made mention of lots of mining colonies along the edge of the expanse. Remember, the Borg would also 'assimilate' non-lifeforms, non-technology, like worlds with desirable mineral resources. They were also after a very rare mineral to produce Omega particles).
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Old August 31 2013, 05:07 PM   #38
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Re: Voth vs. the Borg

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
That has me suspect that a transwarp corridor is the opposite of a warp bubble. It's really a real space tube. Creating an area of real space inside transwarp space where we can exist without bad transwarpy things happening.
There's obviously a warp 10 barrier of some kind, though from that famous sawtoothed graph of energy expenditures at various speeds (Timo's site might have it?), it takes ever more power to get extra 9s added to warp 9.9999... . Many races tried to find ways around it. Transwarp conduits/corridors are one way (Borg), slipstream (Arturis) is another. It seems to be a tough nut to crack based on how rare that warp threshold is crossed vs. the sub-light: warp speed threshold. The Voth are the only race seen that have the most traditional transwarp, just the next step of regular warp.

I still think the transwarp salamanders could best be explained by the 'rare' dilithium on those asteroids being part of a creatures' life cycle, which involves converting the bodies of desired donor material, in this case, advanced races (those capable of warp travel). We see the salamanders, but those could be the tadpole stage of some unknown adult stage or non-corporeal stage of the species (though with intra-species reproduction occurring in the salamander stage). Really, the only problem with "Threshold" was one word: evolution. Remove that, replace it with mutation or transformation and it doesn't look very different from "Identity Crisis". As noted so often, evolution occurs at the species level, not the individual level. And besides, why would transwarp salamanders be the suitable adaptation to being everywhere at once. That everywhere at once sounds almost non-corporeal and as the crew didn't see him on Voyager, it suggests Paris might have been everywhere, but he wasn't on this plane of existence. That dilithium, upon rewatching, just came off as so suspicious, a rare type of dilithium seemingly capable of getting up to warp 10. Imagine a race like the Kobali, who instead of using dead redshirts use space-faring races capable of trying to reach warp 10 as suitable genetic material, then transforming it into salamanders, who might be the caterpillars for some unknown butterfly or have these mediocre amphibian bodies on this plane but their minds are subspace titans or something. That episode struck me as if there was always more than meets the eye if we try to make sense of it (it's a silly exercise, but a fun one anyway . One of the things I love doing with Voyager, like the Equinox distance paradox and their very different journey)
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Old August 31 2013, 06:10 PM   #39
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Re: Voth vs. the Borg

According to the novels, in every timeline except the one where the Destiny trilogy happened, the Borg assimilate the entire galaxy by the year 2600. Voth lose
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Old August 31 2013, 09:19 PM   #40
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Re: Voth vs. the Borg

Then apparently any Voyager episode with Captain Braxton never happened, as he was from the 29th century.
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Old September 1 2013, 12:24 AM   #41
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Re: Voth vs. the Borg

Nor of course any Enterprise episode with Daniels.
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Old September 1 2013, 12:46 AM   #42
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Re: Voth vs. the Borg

Melakon wrote: View Post
Then apparently any Voyager episode with Captain Braxton never happened, as he was from the 29th century.
Braxton's people, as well as Daniels' 31st century time cops, are from the post-Endgame/Destiny future and always were. That's why they don't prevent Admiral Janeway from interfering in the timeline - their own existence depends upon it.
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Old September 1 2013, 12:58 AM   #43
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Re: Voth vs. the Borg

Then there's those ugly aliens from the 26th century trying to get their hands on the Tox Uthat in TNG: Captain's Holiday.

The problem though is it sounds like novels are being interpreted as canon here. What's to prevent an author from completely negating another author's work, if Paramount/CBS/Pocket/Whoever allows the brand name?
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Old September 1 2013, 01:22 AM   #44
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Re: Voth vs. the Borg

and in another 26th Century timeline, the Federation is more interested in fighting Sphere-builders, than the Borg
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Old September 1 2013, 03:32 AM   #45
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Re: Voth vs. the Borg

There's a(n infinite?) number of timelines that sprang forth from Janeway's victory over decency in Endgame.

Besides that 26th century was demolished/sidelined by Archer predestroying the sphere builders in the 22nd century who were no longer there to fight the Federation another 4 hundred years after their final routing.
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