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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old August 31 2013, 09:35 AM   #16
Retu
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Threatening to turn the surface of a planet to glass may sound great and all that, but it's a useless threat. If the other guy decides to call your bluff, you either have to back down or carry out your threat. Both options won't bring back the hostages. And in the latter option, the irony is that it's not the other guy who kills the hostages. It's you.
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Old August 31 2013, 02:15 PM   #17
Gov Kodos
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

It's not useless. The planet's threat to Federation shipping will come to an end. That's what they get for messing with greater powers. The fools were lucky they didn't get the chance to try this shit on the Klingons.
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Old August 31 2013, 02:29 PM   #18
Push The Button
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Retu wrote: View Post
Threatening to turn the surface of a planet to glass may sound great and all that, but it's a useless threat. If the other guy decides to call your bluff, you either have to back down or carry out your threat. Both options won't bring back the hostages. And in the latter option, the irony is that it's not the other guy who kills the hostages. It's you.
Eminiar had been losing three million people a year for the past five hundred years. Executing General Order 24 would have killed perhaps three million people, but also would have finally ended their war with Vendikar once and for all.
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Old August 31 2013, 03:12 PM   #19
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Mysterion wrote: View Post
^^^
Got no problem with that at all. Just think that Starfleet and Gene Roddenberry needed to be a bit more honest with themselves.
Agreed. Star Fleet can call them "Heavy Cruiser" or whatever, but everyone else knows what they are. For instance when the Enterprise nears the Genesis Planet the Klingons called a spade a spade and identified it as a Federation Battle Ship.
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Old August 31 2013, 03:16 PM   #20
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
It's not useless. The planet's threat to Federation shipping will come to an end. That's what they get for messing with greater powers. The fools were lucky they didn't get the chance to try this shit on the Klingons.
This.

If the Klingons had stumbled upon this conflict first they would've never given them the chance to reconsider their conflict and talk peace. They would've either turned both in slave worlds or turned them to glass.

Scotty was going to implement General Order 24.
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Old August 31 2013, 05:38 PM   #21
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

The Enterprise was violating their territory in spite being being explicitly told to stay away. As soon as they ignored that then everything they did was illegal. No amount of hiding behind orders and regulations can change the fact that Starfleet and the Federation were totally wrong.

And what was Fox's justification? He wanted to establish a Treaty Port. Sounds innocent, doesn't it?

Treaty ports are essentially ports opened to foreign trade against the wishes of the host country, usually by threat of attack by a stronger power. "We need/want a port here and you're going to give it to us regardless of your own wishes.."

So much for the Federation and their much touted non-interferance policy.

I would imagine that shortly after the Enterprise left that the war started up again, this time with real, as opposed to virtual, weapons.

We may not understand how their virtual war worked but it was their system and the only casualties are those ships that ignored the code 7-10.
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Old August 31 2013, 05:49 PM   #22
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

RPJOB wrote: View Post
We may not understand how their virtual war worked but it was their system and the only casualties are those ships that ignored the code 7-10.
The problem being that they didn't have some type of waiver system built into their war "treaty" to cover such an eventuality. Kirk would have happily left but was forced into settling their war for them because of it.
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Old August 31 2013, 06:09 PM   #23
Gov Kodos
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

RPJOB wrote: View Post
The Enterprise was violating their territory in spite being being explicitly told to stay away. As soon as they ignored that then everything they did was illegal. No amount of hiding behind orders and regulations can change the fact that Starfleet and the Federation were totally wrong.

And what was Fox's justification? He wanted to establish a Treaty Port. Sounds innocent, doesn't it?

Treaty ports are essentially ports opened to foreign trade against the wishes of the host country, usually by threat of attack by a stronger power. "We need/want a port here and you're going to give it to us regardless of your own wishes.."

So much for the Federation and their much touted non-interferance policy.

I would imagine that shortly after the Enterprise left that the war started up again, this time with real, as opposed to virtual, weapons.

We may not understand how their virtual war worked but it was their system and the only casualties are those ships that ignored the code 7-10.
Bullshit. No one has to put up with being shot at. Emeniar and Vendikar could have left other worlds' ships out of their little war they chose not to. Once they started killing alien citizens they were taking the chance of adding new enemies to their war. The Federation has every right to defend their people. If Emeniar and Vendikar didn't want other people involved in the war they should have refrained from making them part of it.
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Old August 31 2013, 07:19 PM   #24
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

I agree, the time scotty was prepared and ready to commit genocide was indded his finest hour!
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Old August 31 2013, 08:01 PM   #25
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

The episode did give us one good blooper.

Kirk: Do you mean to tell me. . .(Shatner goes blank). . .That was quite a thing you told me!
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Old September 1 2013, 02:05 AM   #26
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Grant wrote: View Post
I agree, the time scotty was prepared and ready to commit genocide was indded his finest hour!
You are ignoring the big picture. Eminiar and Vendikar were committing genocide (ironically against their own people with those disintegration booths) for 500 years. Kirk's ordering of, and Scotty's implementation of General Order 24 would have ended it, once and for all.

Scotty, being the man that he was, knew that Kirk had a really good reason to give that order, and that it wasn't given lightly or for a trivial reason. A lesser man may have second-guessed Kirk, or simply wimped out and refused to carry out such an order, but Scotty stood by his captain.

A real-world parallel would be the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which ultimately saved lives in the long run by bringing WWII to an end in 1945, instead of allowing the fighting to continue for several more years.
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Old September 1 2013, 03:53 AM   #27
The Old Mixer
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

A textbook example of 23rd century "cowboy diplomacy".
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Old September 1 2013, 04:41 AM   #28
Grant
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Push The Button wrote: View Post
Grant wrote: View Post
I agree, the time scotty was prepared and ready to commit genocide was indded his finest hour!
You are ignoring the big picture. Eminiar and Vendikar were committing genocide (ironically against their own people with those disintegration booths) for 500 years. Kirk's ordering of, and Scotty's implementation of General Order 24 would have ended it, once and for all.

Scotty, being the man that he was, knew that Kirk had a really good reason to give that order, and that it wasn't given lightly or for a trivial reason. A lesser man may have second-guessed Kirk, or simply wimped out and refused to carry out such an order, but Scotty stood by his captain.

A real-world parallel would be the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which ultimately saved lives in the long run by bringing WWII to an end in 1945, instead of allowing the fighting to continue for several more years.

Look up the word genocide.

What they were doing for 500 years was absolutely not genocide.

1 to 3 million deaths a year is not genocide

55 to 60 million people on earth were killed in WWII--that's 10 million a year and Earth population ingeneral wasn't anything close to being exterminated--in fact the earths overall population grew during that 6 year period.

Spock himself said the solution had a certain logic to it---a planet commiting genocide would not fall into thaty category.

Wars, famine and diseases kill a lot more people on earth every year than 3 million and we are not facing planetwide genocide or extermination.

Scotty's statement "....in one hour the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed."

IS genocide and I'm proud the writers had the guts to have the Ent crew willing to do it to save the lives of their hostages. if only we had the guts to commit genocide to prove to our adversaries how tough and badass we are!
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Old September 1 2013, 06:22 AM   #29
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Grant wrote: View Post


Look up the word genocide.

What they were doing for 500 years was absolutely not genocide.

1 to 3 million deaths a year is not genocide

55 to 60 million people on earth were killed in WWII--that's 10 million a year and Earth population ingeneral wasn't anything close to being exterminated--in fact the earths overall population grew during that 6 year period.

Spock himself said the solution had a certain logic to it---a planet commiting genocide would not fall into thaty category.

Wars, famine and diseases kill a lot more people on earth every year than 3 million and we are not facing planetwide genocide or extermination.

Scotty's statement "....in one hour the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed."

IS genocide and I'm proud the writers had the guts to have the Ent crew willing to do it to save the lives of their hostages. if only we had the guts to commit genocide to prove to our adversaries how tough and badass we are!
Sorry Grant, incorrect use of the word genocide on my part.
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Old September 1 2013, 06:43 AM   #30
Gov Kodos
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Grant wrote: View Post
Push The Button wrote: View Post
Grant wrote: View Post
I agree, the time scotty was prepared and ready to commit genocide was indded his finest hour!
You are ignoring the big picture. Eminiar and Vendikar were committing genocide (ironically against their own people with those disintegration booths) for 500 years. Kirk's ordering of, and Scotty's implementation of General Order 24 would have ended it, once and for all.

Scotty, being the man that he was, knew that Kirk had a really good reason to give that order, and that it wasn't given lightly or for a trivial reason. A lesser man may have second-guessed Kirk, or simply wimped out and refused to carry out such an order, but Scotty stood by his captain.

A real-world parallel would be the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which ultimately saved lives in the long run by bringing WWII to an end in 1945, instead of allowing the fighting to continue for several more years.

Look up the word genocide.

What they were doing for 500 years was absolutely not genocide.

1 to 3 million deaths a year is not genocide

55 to 60 million people on earth were killed in WWII--that's 10 million a year and Earth population ingeneral wasn't anything close to being exterminated--in fact the earths overall population grew during that 6 year period.

Spock himself said the solution had a certain logic to it---a planet commiting genocide would not fall into thaty category.

Wars, famine and diseases kill a lot more people on earth every year than 3 million and we are not facing planetwide genocide or extermination.

Scotty's statement "....in one hour the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed."

IS genocide and I'm proud the writers had the guts to have the Ent crew willing to do it to save the lives of their hostages. if only we had the guts to commit genocide to prove to our adversaries how tough and badass we are!
Tough shit.
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