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Old August 31 2013, 12:09 AM   #316
FPAlpha
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Yes, because all star wars books are about random jedi/x-wong battles

Star wars novels have created a lot of characters never in the movies that are some of my favorites in any media, and some of my favorite books ever. If i was alone on a desert island and could only take one book series, it would be the Star Wars: Republic Commando books, even over the Dune series and LOTR. Thats not saying I think its a higher quality neccesarily, but if I ever had to list my favorite books, with my favorite characters, SW: RC is on the short list (which also has LOTR and Dune). Including stuff by Timothy Zahn or Michael Stackpole/Aaron Allston's X-Wing series, a lot of my favorite novels are Star wars, and I'll defend them against all book snobs

I honestly don't want to argue about this. I'm fine with people looking down on Star wars books. I know I'd rather read a Karen traviss or timothy Zahn Star Wars book over any of the snobby "classics", so I get it from the other perspective. I can't (and won't) argue the signifigance of people like asimov, Clarke and Bradbury. At the same time, I'd personally put my favorite SW authors over any of them when it comes to what I think makes an entertaining read. I don't want to read sci fi novels about random robots and their three laws (which I thought were extremely stupid, but thats just coming from the I, Robot movie, maybe they're better thought out/less stupid in writing) or books about some guy inventing BS "psychohistory" (I half thought the Foundation wikipedia page was a joke when I just looked it up, I don't think I could invent a less interesting concept for a book if I tried). I don't read sci fi to read about stuff like that. I like interesting characters, and I somehow doubt characters matter much in a collection of short stories like I, Robot, or in stuff like the story of a man, an evil AI, and for some reason both monkies and space fetuses (which may have just been on the movie version, but like I said, when I think of snobby sci fi, I think of 2001). I'm not saying those aren't classics or that they're bad, I'd just take the worst Star wars book over them any day of the week.
Listen.. i love the Star Wars books for what they are, i have started with the Zahn Thrawn trilogy back when they were originally released up to the multi-book New Jedi Order series which was awesome in its scope.

However what irks me the most in your postings is the constant referral to "snobby books" which in turn makes you sort of a snob too. You constantly deride old classics by putting them down without ever having actually read any of them to form a grounded opinion. You get so defensive because you like your Star Wars and Star Trek books and assume that everybody who's a fan of classics automatically thinks less of you because you like those books.

Try to keep an open mind and maybe invest a week or so to read one of those snobby books.. it might change your mind.
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Old August 31 2013, 12:13 AM   #317
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Mysterion wrote: View Post
I am begining to get the impression that to science-fiction fans below a certain age nothing exists unless it is on TV, a movie, a video/computer game, or adapted from one of those things. The whole literary side of the genre seems to be fading into obscurity. I hope I am wrong about this.
Just for myself, when it comes to non tv/movie/video game based sci fi, outside of obvious stuff like Dune, I happen to love Mike Resnick's Starship series, 4 great books not connected to outside media. For fantasy, I really enjoyed John Ringo's two Special Circumstances books, Neil Gaiman's Good Omens, and The Once and Future King. Besides that, a lot of the stuff I like is atleast somewhat connected to outside media, like The Dragonlance books, which are connected to D&D but is still a world created by the authors or John Ringo's Troy Rising trilogy which is apparently somewhat barely related to some outside story.

That said, looking at my list of books I've read (which isn't complete but is fairly comprehensive), I really haven't read that many sci fi or fantasy that are completely unconnected to anything but themselves. Then again, its hard to know whats good, and I usually have books I actually know I'll want to read taking up my time, instead of possibly wasting time on books of unknown quality.
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Old August 31 2013, 12:15 AM   #318
DalekJim
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Mysterion wrote: View Post
I am begining to get the impression that to science-fiction fans below a certain age nothing exists unless it is on TV, a movie, a video/computer game, or adapted from one of those things. The whole literary side of the genre seems to be fading into obscurity. I hope I am wrong about this.
I'm young by this forum's standards, and I care much more about literature than I do almost anything else. I'm a writer, and have been working on my first novel all summer. In my off-time, I've been reading the works of Robert A Heinlein, who has become my favourite author.

Movie science-fiction is by and large terrible. I'm a huge Star Trek fan, but most of the films are mediocre at best.
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Old August 31 2013, 12:21 AM   #319
kirk55555
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

FPAlpha wrote: View Post
kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Yes, because all star wars books are about random jedi/x-wong battles

Star wars novels have created a lot of characters never in the movies that are some of my favorites in any media, and some of my favorite books ever. If i was alone on a desert island and could only take one book series, it would be the Star Wars: Republic Commando books, even over the Dune series and LOTR. Thats not saying I think its a higher quality neccesarily, but if I ever had to list my favorite books, with my favorite characters, SW: RC is on the short list (which also has LOTR and Dune). Including stuff by Timothy Zahn or Michael Stackpole/Aaron Allston's X-Wing series, a lot of my favorite novels are Star wars, and I'll defend them against all book snobs

I honestly don't want to argue about this. I'm fine with people looking down on Star wars books. I know I'd rather read a Karen traviss or timothy Zahn Star Wars book over any of the snobby "classics", so I get it from the other perspective. I can't (and won't) argue the signifigance of people like asimov, Clarke and Bradbury. At the same time, I'd personally put my favorite SW authors over any of them when it comes to what I think makes an entertaining read. I don't want to read sci fi novels about random robots and their three laws (which I thought were extremely stupid, but thats just coming from the I, Robot movie, maybe they're better thought out/less stupid in writing) or books about some guy inventing BS "psychohistory" (I half thought the Foundation wikipedia page was a joke when I just looked it up, I don't think I could invent a less interesting concept for a book if I tried). I don't read sci fi to read about stuff like that. I like interesting characters, and I somehow doubt characters matter much in a collection of short stories like I, Robot, or in stuff like the story of a man, an evil AI, and for some reason both monkies and space fetuses (which may have just been on the movie version, but like I said, when I think of snobby sci fi, I think of 2001). I'm not saying those aren't classics or that they're bad, I'd just take the worst Star wars book over them any day of the week.
Listen.. i love the Star Wars books for what they are, i have started with the Zahn Thrawn trilogy back when they were originally released up to the multi-book New Jedi Order series which was awesome in its scope.

However what irks me the most in your postings is the constant referral to "snobby books" which in turn makes you sort of a snob too. You constantly deride old classics by putting them down without ever having actually read any of them to form a grounded opinion. You get so defensive because you like your Star Wars and Star Trek books and assume that everybody who's a fan of classics automatically thinks less of you because you like those books.

Try to keep an open mind and maybe invest a week or so to read one of those snobby books.. it might change your mind.

I get a bit defensive, but to be fair a lot of people are pretty harsh on the SW/ST books. As for the "snobs" comments, I'm not trying to insult people. I've never said the classics were bad, just that they don't interest me at all. But, when people start talking about how SW/ST books are just generic action (which is wrong 90% of the time) and how a bunch of authors older than my parents are the better writers because....they're old, I guess, it gets on my nerves. I'm fine with people liking what they like, I just happen to not have any desire to waste my time reading books from authors I know never wrote stuff I would like, and being an old sci fi author does not automatically make the perosn's work awesome or something everyone would want to read. Its like I said, 2001 A space Odessey is my benchmark. It was super long, slow, and nonsensical. Its also considered a masterpiece. It seems to be a representative of those kinds of books/sci fi stories of that era, and I have no desire to read anything remotely like that movie.

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Mysterion wrote: View Post
I am begining to get the impression that to science-fiction fans below a certain age nothing exists unless it is on TV, a movie, a video/computer game, or adapted from one of those things. The whole literary side of the genre seems to be fading into obscurity. I hope I am wrong about this.

I'm young by this forum's standards, and I care much more about literature than I do almost anything else. I'm a writer, and have been working on my first novel all summer. In my off-time, I've been reading the works of Robert A Heinlein, who has become my favourite author.

Movie science-fiction is by and large terrible. I'm a huge Star Trek fan, but most of the films are mediocre at best.

Well, the Abrams movies are terrible, but ST 2, 6, First Contact, 3, and 4 are pretty good (in that order, and ST II is my favorite movie ever).
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Old August 31 2013, 12:23 AM   #320
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

The first 2 Star Trek movies are really good, it's rare I can be arsed watching any of the rest though. I'd rather just watch a random episode.
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Old August 31 2013, 12:28 AM   #321
kirk55555
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

DalekJim wrote: View Post
The first 2 Star Trek movies are really good, it's rare I can be arsed watching any of the rest though. I'd rather just watch a random episode.

Well, I personally don't like The Motion Picture, but I'd say I actuall like more of the movies than I dislike. I can even watch and enjoy Generations and Nemesis, although I acknowledge that they are far from good movies. Insurrection, ST V and The Motion Picture, though, I just really dislike.
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Old August 31 2013, 01:51 AM   #322
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Mysterion wrote: View Post
I am begining to get the impression that to science-fiction fans below a certain age nothing exists unless it is on TV, a movie, a video/computer game, or adapted from one of those things. The whole literary side of the genre seems to be fading into obscurity. I hope I am wrong about this.
Television programs, movies, computer games even audio books are more universally accessible media than prose. You just have to accept that.
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Old August 31 2013, 07:52 AM   #323
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Not true.. nearly every book is only a few mouseclicks away. Amazon was once primarily known as the premiere online bookshop before you could buy nearly anything from them.

Reading just takes time, some patience and it slows down your day.. qualities not very sought after in this age where everything has to be flashy, on the spot and happening now with as much action as possible (most non-readers describe reading as boring and tedious).
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Old August 31 2013, 08:23 AM   #324
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

What I love about books is that a really good book can immerse you in it's world in a way no movie can. Sure a movie can be made with great atmosphere, and a good accompanying soundtrack can go a long way, but it still can't grab you in a way a book can.
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Old August 31 2013, 02:05 PM   #325
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

kirk55555 wrote:
I know I'd rather read a Karen traviss
Jesus wept.
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Old August 31 2013, 07:57 PM   #326
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

^After participating in Kirk's first-time-watching-Babylon 5 type thread, I've learnt it's best not to try and make sense of his opinions, nor should one attempt to change them. Just smile and nod.
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Old September 1 2013, 12:27 AM   #327
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
I've finally seen Dune from beginning to end. Its easily the worst sci fi book adaptation I've ever seen, and probably the worst one ever. This movie did not go 30 seconds without screwing something up from the book or just being obnoxious. It also loved to have pointless, usually disgusting, imagery for no real reason except that the writer/director is an moron. I could write a large essay about the problems in this movie, but I'll just bring up a few.
The villain, Baron harkonnen, was ruined. He went from a very evil, but clever and sane, villain to a basically completely made clown. In the book he was really into violence and stuff like that, and a lot of his violence was disturbing. But in this movie its jumped the shark. He's diseased (with a face ravaged by disease) and seems to get off on drenching himself with blood and doing other bizarre things. He's constantly laughing like a bad supervillain and just acting like a complete nutjob. He also poisoned Hawat, who was his prisoner, and agave him the poison antidote by making Hawat milk a cat. That was so bizarre I find it hard to even be angry at that, I'm just confused about what idiot thought that was a better idea than how the book Baron dealt with Hawat. Anyway, the baron is easily the worst written character, and completely misses what the original character was.

The movie also just messed up basically everything possible from the book. Instead of just being a good fighter with powers honed by people for centuries, Paul had a "weirding weapon", basically a blaster, and thats how he and his men fought. Instead of hand to hand combat, we got crappy blaster fights. He also seemed to gain the ability to control worms, and control the weather (both extremely stupid things , and in the case of making the planet rain stupid and actually very destructive because rain+spice under the ground = chain reaction that kills all the worms and, in effect, billions of people, so I hope his control of the weather is really good). I could literally go on for hours, but it comes down to this. Dune is a horribly written movie that basically fails in all areas, and is an insult to the book its "adapting" (and I use that term loosely).

Most characters are written badly (although Patrick Stewart does a good job with his 10-20 lines in the movie) a lot of the plot was fast forwarded through, and it was in love with its own crappy special effects. People could say that the movie needed more time, and I agree that Dune can really not be adapted in 2 hours. That said, what we got in 2 hours was so wrong that there is no way Lynch could have done any better (and would probably have done much worse) even if he could have made it as long as he wanted. The only thing i can say positive about this movie is that I think that the actors were honestly trying to do the best with what they were given, and they deserve credit for that. Still, nothing saves this movie from being a horrible adaptation of an excellent book.

Also, just as a side comment, what was up with the pug? There was literally just a random pug (apparently owned by the atriedies) that just kept popping up. Gurney Hallack even went into battle with a rifle in one hand and the pug in another.
This is starting to sound kind of like the paper I wrote comparing the book version of Dune to the Lynch film for a college class.

though for the final battle i believe I pointed out that since the blaster things were sound weapons they just spend the final battle screaming at people and making them explode.

Though I do like the soundtrack for the film.

FPAlpha wrote: View Post
(personally i recommend the original Foundation trilogy by Asimov)
I actually sort of gave up on that trilogy after the second book.

I mean don't get me wrong it the two books were well written its just kind of hard to keep interest when you go from the protagonists in the first book actually doing things to win to basically being reduced to passive observers in the second who would have won without doing anything in the first half of the book to actually rotting for the primary antagonist of the second half of the book, just because he was more sympathetic then a bunch of plutocrats, and he was screwing up the hologram of long since dead guy's plan.
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Old September 1 2013, 12:40 AM   #328
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Yeah, to be fair, the Foundation books can be even harder to get into than Dune. The first two or three are just a series of short stories connected by a common thread. It's a sweeping epic tale of the fall and rise of Empires so you don't have a stable cast of characters or a central plot to carry you through the narrative.

If I was trying to get someone into sci-fi literature I might recommend they start with something more like early Heinlein ('Starship Troopers', 'Citizen of the Galaxy', 'Puppet Masters', etc.) or maybe 'Ender's Game', 'Rendezvous With Rama' or Kim Stanley Robinson's 'Red/Blue/Green Mars' trilogy.
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Old September 1 2013, 04:10 PM   #329
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

The best purpose for sci-fi and fantasy novels are to aid in the expansion of the reader's consciousness and idea space. This is why Dune and God Emperor of Dune are infinitely more interesting than the books by Brian and Kevin. Those books aren't about the universe, they're just action novels which use the Dune universe. Which is fine and valid, but there are really much better page-turner thriller books to be read. I can't see Paul of Dune changing anybody's life.
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Old September 4 2013, 08:59 PM   #330
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

You are being far too generous in regards to the KA&BH books. They aren't even good action books, they are just generic filler that really avoid the meat of what FH was trying to write about. The sequels especially, but also the prequels. They water down and dilute what was essential within those novels and replace them with B-movie plots.
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