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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old August 30 2013, 03:51 PM   #31
darth_ender
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Re: STVI without the racism

I am aware of the meaning of varelse (according to Card). It means that communication and coexistence is impossible. Obviously communication between Klingons and Humans is possible, and that's why I said "almost seeming varelse". What I mean is that they seemed as if they could never coexist, regardless of communication-abilities. It was an admittedly imperfect analogy.
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Old August 30 2013, 07:34 PM   #32
Marc
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Re: STVI without the racism

darth_ender wrote: View Post
I admit there seems to be a disconnect between the feelings towards Klingons between TFF and TUC: they were okay throwing back a few alien beverages with them, but when their moon blew up, well then "let them die!" Still, I believe the prejudice existent in ST VI is actually pretty realistic. As pointed out, the Enterprise had had several very negative run-ins with the Klingons over the years, and it seemed as if the two cultures could never coexist. They were almost seemingly "varelse" (to quote another of my favorite sci-fi storylines), and it was hard for the Enterprise to believe they could be "raman".
I don't know if it's writer's additions or originally planned, but in the novelization starts starts out with attacks on Federation outposts by Klingon renegades i.e Chang. One of those put Carol Marcus in hospital with critical injuries.

Factor that in and some of the attitudes by Kirk and Co become more understandable.
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Old August 31 2013, 05:34 PM   #33
sonak
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Re: STVI without the racism

Marc wrote: View Post
darth_ender wrote: View Post
I admit there seems to be a disconnect between the feelings towards Klingons between TFF and TUC: they were okay throwing back a few alien beverages with them, but when their moon blew up, well then "let them die!" Still, I believe the prejudice existent in ST VI is actually pretty realistic. As pointed out, the Enterprise had had several very negative run-ins with the Klingons over the years, and it seemed as if the two cultures could never coexist. They were almost seemingly "varelse" (to quote another of my favorite sci-fi storylines), and it was hard for the Enterprise to believe they could be "raman".
I don't know if it's writer's additions or originally planned, but in the novelization starts starts out with attacks on Federation outposts by Klingon renegades i.e Chang. One of those put Carol Marcus in hospital with critical injuries.

Factor that in and some of the attitudes by Kirk and Co become more understandable.

yeah, it's too bad they left that out, as it would have made the attitudes make more sense. As it is, the beginning of STVI is jarringly discrepant from the end of STV in terms of senior staff attitudes.(leaving aside jokes about TFF not being canon)

I know there's some time that passed, but we as viewers just left them casually dining with Klingons in a spirit of relaxation, then it's "they're animals who can't be trusted."
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Old August 31 2013, 06:28 PM   #34
Sran
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Re: STVI without the racism

sonak wrote: View Post
Kirk has one previous reference to "Klingon bastards" and that's right after his son has been killed, and there's no other indications of racial dislike of Klingons until we get to TUC.
He used that phrase again in TFF when the BOP appeared from the behind the cliff where the malevolent entity was stalking him.

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Old August 31 2013, 08:06 PM   #35
sonak
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Re: STVI without the racism

Sran wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Kirk has one previous reference to "Klingon bastards" and that's right after his son has been killed, and there's no other indications of racial dislike of Klingons until we get to TUC.
He used that phrase again in TFF when the BOP appeared from the behind the cliff where the malevolent entity was stalking him.

--Sran

good call, I forgot about that one.
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Old September 1 2013, 09:13 PM   #36
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Re: STVI without the racism

The Trouble With Tribbles
KIRK: How close will we come to the Klingon outpost if we continue on our present course?
CHEKOV: One parsec, sir. Close enough to smell them.

TUC
Crewman #1: They all look alike.
Crewman #2: What about that smell?

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Old September 1 2013, 09:49 PM   #37
Timo
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Re: STVI without the racism

It would be interesting to learn what experience Kirk has had of Klingons outside and before the onscreen events. Garth of Izar refers to past military glories, which Kirk sounds embarrassed about, as if he himself once indulged. Was that against the Klingons?

Does Chekov know how Klingons smell, or is he just quoting a (true) rumor? Kirk at that point apparently does, having met Kor in rather heated circumstances...

The ending of ST5 isn't the part that IMHO creates a discrepancy there; from the looks of it, most of the Klingons in that party still hate the humans, and most of the humans still fear the Klingons. It's the ST5 Klingon character of General Korrd that represents something of a discontinuity, as the old wardog seems to have Kirk's sympathies and vice versa. But that's individual Klingons, and while Korrd may actually be a fairly typical example of Klingons of his age and position, the mass of young hotheads that Kirk would typically deal with would outweigh even the portly General!

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Old September 1 2013, 10:48 PM   #38
Sran
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Re: STVI without the racism

Timo wrote: View Post
It's the ST5 Klingon character of General Korrd that represents something of a discontinuity, as the old wardog seems to have Kirk's sympathies and vice versa. But that's individual Klingons, and while Korrd may actually be a fairly typical example of Klingons of his age and position, the mass of young hotheads that Kirk would typically deal with would outweigh even the portly General!
I always attributed Kirk's sympathy to two things:

1. His recent demotion to captain and reassignment to Enterprise. He got what he wanted but likely thought about what might have happened had things gone down differently in TVH.

2. Korrd's military strategies were required reading at the Academy. A young Kirk not yet jaded by numerous run-ins with the Klingons may have admired the general's intellect and leadership qualities and seen him as the type of commander he wanted to be like (within the confines of Starfleet regulations, of course).

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Old September 2 2013, 01:38 AM   #39
austen_pierce
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Re: STVI without the racism

darth_ender wrote: View Post
I am aware of the meaning of varelse (according to Card). It means that communication and coexistence is impossible. Obviously communication between Klingons and Humans is possible, and that's why I said "almost seeming varelse". What I mean is that they seemed as if they could never coexist, regardless of communication-abilities. It was an admittedly imperfect analogy.
Fair enough. My response was abrupt and I apologize. I do take your meaning.

sonak wrote: View Post
Sran wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Kirk has one previous reference to "Klingon bastards" and that's right after his son has been killed, and there's no other indications of racial dislike of Klingons until we get to TUC.
He used that phrase again in TFF when the BOP appeared from the behind the cliff where the malevolent entity was stalking him.

--Sran

good call, I forgot about that one.
T'Girl wrote: View Post
The Trouble With Tribbles
KIRK: How close will we come to the Klingon outpost if we continue on our present course?
CHEKOV: One parsec, sir. Close enough to smell them.

TUC
Crewman #1: They all look alike.
Crewman #2: What about that smell?


I think we've established that David's murder gives Kirk sufficient reason to distrust Klingons. It doesn't help that they keep proving him right, coming after him time after time.

While there is revulsion from the others, I don't think of this as racism.
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Old September 2 2013, 01:48 AM   #40
Sran
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Re: STVI without the racism

austen_pierce wrote: View Post
I think we've established that David's murder gives Kirk sufficient reason to distrust Klingons. It doesn't help that they keep proving him right, coming after him time after time.
But even in those cases, the Klingons who were after him were rogue elements acting out of turn with respect to the rest of their government. Kruge, Klaa, and Chang were all renegades of some sort (though Klaa's behavior stemmed from immaturity and a desire to make a name for himself rather than blatant disregard for the law): Chang was a traitor, and Kruge was just nuts. Their behavior wasn't representative of the entire species.

I suppose one could argue that the High Council's inability to control the military suggests an inherent lack of discipline among Klingons as a people, but that doesn't warrant calling them animals. The Federation had its own problems with rogue elements stirring up trouble, even during Kirk's time. Were men like Cartwright or Colonel West animals because they decided to circumvent the law to ferment war with the Klingons? Was Valeris an animal because she helped them? I don't think characterizing any of the parties involved that way is fair. They were misguided and inflexible, but that's a long way from being savage.

--Sran
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Old September 2 2013, 01:53 AM   #41
Gojira
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Re: STVI without the racism

Given Kirk's history with the Klingons and the fact they murdered his son, has animosity toward them seemed very much in character for him.
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Old September 2 2013, 02:08 AM   #42
Bacl
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Re: STVI without the racism

Kinokima wrote: View Post
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McCoy's teasing of Spock is racism, because it concerns his race's appearance.
No it's not it's just that teasing. McCoy only teased Spock, never made rants about Vulcans in general or said anything negative about other Vulcans he met.
McCoy also seemed fine with Vulcans in all other interactions, it was just Spock the individual that he needled. I think if there was any racism, it was the half-Vulcan race, as McCoy was truly a man of emotion, and the idea that any human, even a half-human, would so entirely reject all emotion was what really got him upset.

I remember one episode in particular (can't remember the title), Spock got taken over by an alien super-power, and the super-power liked the idea of invading Vulcan and turning them into warriors. McCoy looked aghast and emotionally shouted, "You can't! Vulcans value peace above all else!" He spoke as someone who viewed the Vulcans as members of his family (the big Federation idealism family-kind) and respected them and their ways.

It was just Spock the individual that annoyed the living hell out of him.

I always thought a great TOS episode would have been one where a full-blood Vulcan served aboard the Enterprise temporarily, and Bones got along with him swimingly, probably more so than Spock would.
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Old September 2 2013, 02:17 AM   #43
Sran
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Re: STVI without the racism

Bacl wrote: View Post
I always thought a great TOS episode would have been one where a full-blood Vulcan served aboard the Enterprise temporarily, and Bones got along with him swimingly, probably more so than Spock would.
Believe it or not, this exact idea was discussed for the Xon character in the Phase II series, only on a more permanent basis.

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Old September 2 2013, 02:20 AM   #44
austen_pierce
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Re: STVI without the racism

Bacl wrote: View Post
Kinokima wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
McCoy's teasing of Spock is racism, because it concerns his race's appearance.
No it's not it's just that teasing. McCoy only teased Spock, never made rants about Vulcans in general or said anything negative about other Vulcans he met.
McCoy also seemed fine with Vulcans in all other interactions, it was just Spock the individual that he needled. I think if there was any racism, it was the half-Vulcan race, as McCoy was truly a man of emotion, and the idea that any human, even a half-human, would so entirely reject all emotion was what really got him upset.

I remember one episode in particular (can't remember the title), Spock got taken over by an alien super-power, and the super-power liked the idea of invading Vulcan and turning them into warriors. McCoy looked aghast and emotionally shouted, "You can't! Vulcans value peace above all else!" He spoke as someone who viewed the Vulcans as members of his family (the big Federation idealism family-kind) and respected them and their ways.

It was just Spock the individual that annoyed the living hell out of him.

I always thought a great TOS episode would have been one where a full-blood Vulcan served aboard the Enterprise temporarily, and Bones got along with him swimingly, probably more so than Spock would.
The dynamic between Spock and McCoy was never racism. Yes, they got on each others nerves, but when it counted, their friendship mattered demonstrably. After all Spock entrusted McCoy with his Katra. Then McCoy basically pleads with the unconscious Spock to hang on, saying "I don't think I could stand to lose you again."
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Old September 2 2013, 07:55 AM   #45
Enterprise is Great
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Re: STVI without the racism

Gojira wrote: View Post
Given Kirk's history with the Klingons and the fact they murdered his son, has animosity toward them seemed very much in character for him.
But why was it missing in Star Trek 5? He seemed pretty ok with them it that film. What changed between TFF and TUC?
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