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TrekToday http://www.trektoday.com/content Daily Star Trek news Sun, 02 Aug 2015 16:53:37 +0000 en-US hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.3 Retro Review: Learning Curve http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/retro-review-learning-curve/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/retro-review-learning-curve/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 21:16:02 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41256 Tuvok attempts to train four Maquis crewmembers who are having difficulty following Starfleet protocols.

Plot Summary: Lieutenant Dalby discovers a malfunctioning bio-neural gel pack and replaces it without getting authorization, which causes several systems ship-wide to stop working. Tuvok expresses concern to Janeway that Dalby and some other Maquis crewmembers are not trained or disciplined enough to work on a Starfleet vessel. Though Janeway is more worried about the possibility of multiple gel pack failures disabling Voyager’s systems, she recommends an on-the-job training course for the crewmembers having the greatest difficulties. Chakotay gives onetime Starfleet Academy instructor Tuvok a list of possible candidates, from which Tuvok selects four junior officers – impulsive Dalby, belligerent Henley, unfocused Chell, and bitter Gerron – who deeply resent being singled out for extra attention. The group complains when Tuvok insists that they remove all traces of their personal style from their professional demeanor and marches out after what they consider to be an unfair physical exercise. Neelix offers Tuvok some wisdom about plant stalks needing to be flexible, which Tuvok at first takes to mean that the young crewmembers are too rigid, then discovers that Neelix means to criticize himself and his teaching methods. He tries to get to know Dalby and realizes that some of the Maquis crewmembers suffered traumas that make it impossible for them to become contented, well-adjusted Starfleet officers overnight. Meanwhile, the Doctor discovers that Neelix’s attempt to make cheese has cultivated a bacteria that now infects the gel packs. The Doctor proposes raising the temperature to help the gel packs fight off the infection, but although the gel packs are saved, Tuvok and his unhappy team become trapped in a cargo bay where Gerron is injured. Dalby becomes irate when Tuvok orders him to get to safety with Henley and Chell, but when Tuvok himself violates procedure, risking his life to save Gerron, the Maquis officers are impressed and promise to work harder to obey the rules.

Analysis: I didn’t like “Learning Curve” when it first aired for its obnoxious attitude toward Maquis dissidents and indeed toward anyone who refused to assimilate entirely into Starfleet’s arbitrary regulations, which I thought at the time might just reflect my lack of understanding of how military protocols worked. But it rubs me the wrong way even more so now that we’ve seen some of the history of Vulcan intolerance in Enterprise, and now that we know the Maquis will be asked to give up their sense of belonging to their own cultures as well as their identities as members of an organization in conflict with Starfleet (the latter a demand that’s completely justified on a mission like Voyager’s, though I note that Worf was allowed to wear the accoutrements of a Klingon warrior on duty even when the Klingons were at war with the Federation). Of course it’s a problem that many of the Maquis have not had Starfleet training in teamwork, physical fitness, even self-protection, though I might note that Neelix and Kes haven’t either. It would seem both reasonable and fair for Tuvok to include them in a course to get underprepared crewmembers ready for life traveling through the Delta Quadrant, particularly since Kes had never left her village, let alone her homeworld, until just before Voyager arrived. The cheese incident that almost destroys the bio-neural gel packs is a far more heinous betrayal of safety protocols than the replacement of one of those gel packs, even if Dalby is rude when reprimanded while Neelix only stammers in embarrassment. And surely there are Starfleet crewmembers as well as Maquis who were unprepared to have a brief mission into the Badlands turn into a potentially lifelong journey? Couldn’t many of the junior officers use a refresher course in focus and teamwork? If Janeway and Chakotay’s goal is to get their two crews functioning as a single unit with the same ease with which Torres now works with Carey, they’d be well advised to include some Starfleet officers in the remedial class even just for show. Not so long ago, Tom Paris was a criminal and Torres was punching fellow officers, while now they’re fourth and fifth in the command chain; seems like a lot of people on that ship could use a bit of extra attention.

And although Tuvok may have been an Academy instructor for more than a decade, he seems like the wrong person to be leading an exercise in new-to-Starfleet teamwork. These angry, demoralized Maquis crewmembers need a counselor, not a disciplinarian; the morale officer might do them more good, and indeed does them more good when he lectures Tuvok, than a stern Vulcan whom they consider a traitor to their cause. I think it’s a mistake that we see the senior officers’ point of view rather than that of the recruits, since we don’t get to learn the positive independent-minded aspects of what Chakotay dismisses as “the Maquis way.” A strong left hook may get someone hauled before a disciplinary committee in Starfleet, but we’ve had such behavior by the Klingons rammed down our throats for years now as something we should admire, so it just doesn’t look particularly outrageous when a Maquis crewmember does precisely what a Klingon would do in a similar situation of being singled out for his temper. Apart from Dalby, who joined the Maquis because Cardassians brutalized his girlfriend, we never get to know the Maquis crewmembers, and the more Tuvok talks, the more arrogant he seems, like the obnoxious Vulcans of “Take Me Out to the Holosuite” rather than thoughtful, nuanced individuals like Spock and Sarek. Now that the US military and other such organizations have relaxed their rules about whether and when soldiers can wear yarmulkes, hijabs, and other items directly related to the practice of religion, I feel even more justified in my fury against Tuvok when he orders Gerron to take off his Bajoran earring – an accessory quite different from the headband that Tuvok forbids Henley to wear. The Bajoran earring is a symbol of faith. It’s also a mark of one’s family and social caste, two things that the young Gerron has lost being stranded 70,000 light years from home. Whether he had lost those already in a traumatic incident that led him to join the Maquis, as Dalby seems to believe, or whether he joined the Maquis out of sympathy for the settlers’ desire to protect their homes, like Kasidy Yates, Gerron is clearly clinging to this one meaningful relic of his former life, which Tuvok orders him to put away without any care for its significance.

Clearly, Tuvok is obsessed with the letter of the law rather than its spirit – he’s closer to being Javert from Les Miserables than was Sisko when Eddington mocked him with that sobriquet – but given the pettiness of the Vulcans we saw in many TNG and DS9 episodes, I gather we’re supposed to assume that it’s because Tuvok’s a Vulcan, for whom logic demands holding even to the most trivial of regulations. But I can’t understand why Chakotay agrees to let someone whom he thought served his own cause, then turned out to have been working behind his back all along, serve as corrections officer for other Maquis crewmembers. Chakotay’s facial tattoo would not be permitted even in the current US military, and I’d love to hear his response if Tuvok ordered him to remove it or cover it up. He’s usually a champion of diversity and broadmindedness, yet he seems amused at the thought of having four shipmates for whom he was once responsible, who are as troubled as they are troubling, put under Tuvok’s yoke. Of course ship-wide discipline is important in a crisis, as we see when it takes much of the crew working together to solve the problem with the gel packs, but a rigid dress code for people who will be working together for many years can hardly be the element that makes them see themselves as a team. It will be acknowledging, understanding, accepting, and taking advantage of their differences which will accomplish that. If the Starfleet uniform serves to bond Voyager’s crew in early days, it later serves to homogenize them; no wonder Sisko preferred spending his off-duty hours in African dress and Kira never stopped wearing her Bajoran earring even when in Starfleet uniform. “Learning Curve” fails in its effort to be “Lower Decks” because it fears to let us get to know and admire the quirks of the individual Maquis, erasing their distinct histories and grievances even as Janeway’s off playing traditional British governess in a traditional British novel knockoff. She needs to spend more time thinking about exactly which aspects of the Federation she plans to keep thriving on her ship as it creeps toward home.

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Star Trek: The Exhibition In Washington State http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-the-exhibition-in-washington-state/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-the-exhibition-in-washington-state/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 19:00:37 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41252 Star Trek: The Exhibition will be arriving at the Washington State Fair in September.

The Washington State Fair will take place September 11-27 in Puyallup.

Star Trek: The Exhibition, under license by CBS Consumer Products, will run for seventeen days and gives visitors the opportunity to enjoy an interactive, museum-style experience of one of the largest collections of authentic Star Trek artifacts and information ever put on public display. This is a separate ticketed exhibit, and requires Fair admission. Exhibit tickets can be purchased in advance for $6.50 until Sept 10 here, or $8 at the State Fair. Children five years and under are free in the exhibit with a paid adult. Online orders are subject to standard processing fees.

The Exhibition brings visitors into the Star Trek universe and allows them to connect with iconic Star Trek moments. Throughout this experience, visitors, especially younger visitors and youth, will be inspired and motivated to seek out more education, and perhaps ignite a passion for lifelong learning and careers in science and technology.

Star Trek fans and novices alike will have a first-hand interactive experience to explore the worlds, wisdom, science, stories, cultures, characters, fashions and fantasies of the Star Trek universe. In the States, and around the world, Star Trek has become a sub-culture for many, supported by countless fan conventions and fan gatherings where many regularly gather and role-play in their favorite Star Trek characters.

“Among the main attractions of The Exhibition is the opportunity to sit in the legendary Captain’s chair where Captain Kirk and subsequently Captain Picard took command of the U.S.S. Enterprise; the opportunity to pose in front of a replica of the U.S.S. Enterprise; and one-of-a-kind displays, interactive kiosks and rare photo opportunities.”

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August-September 2015 Trek Conventions And Appearances http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/august-september-2015-trek-conventions-and-appearances/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/august-september-2015-trek-conventions-and-appearances/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:53:51 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41248 There will be nineteen conventions, shows or appearances in August and September that will feature actors of interest to Star Trek fans.

This listing of conventions and shows features actors from all of the televised series and several of the Star Trek movies.

August begins with The Official Star Trek Convention will be held Aug. 6-9 at the Rio Suites Hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada. In attendance at The Official Star Trek Convention will be Marc Alaimo, Vaughn Armstrong, Richard Arnold, Rene Auberjonois, Robert Beltran, Casey Biggs, John Billingsley, Brannon Braga, Bobby Clark, Joan Collins, Jeffrey Combs, Denise Crosby, Olivia d’Abo, Michael Dante, James Darren, Roxanne Dawson, Nicole de Boer, John de Lancie, Elizabeth Dennehy (Commander Shelby), Chris Doohan, Michael Dorn, Doug Drexler, Aron Eisenberg, Terry Farrell, Jonathan Frakes, Bryan Fuller, Joseph Gatt, Max Grodenchik, Richard Herd, J.G. Hertzler, Jennifer Hetrick (Vash), Manu Intiraymi, Sherry Jackson, Salome Jens, Dominic Keating, Walter Koenig, Alice Krige, Cirroc Lofton, Don Marshall, Chase Masterson, Robert Duncan McNeill, Anthony Montgomery, Ronald B. Moore, Kate Mulgrew, Larry Nemecek, Adam Nimoy, Denise Okuda, Mike Okuda, Robert O’Reilly, Linda Park, Ethan Phillips, Robert Picardo, Andrew Robinson, Rod Roddenberry, David L. Ross (Lt. Galloway and Lt. Johnson), Saul Rubinek, Tim Russ, Jeri Ryan, Judson Scott (Joachim from The Wrath of Khan), William Shatner, Mark Allen Shepherd (Morn), William Morgan Sheppard, Armin Shimerman, Alexander Siddig, Marina Sirtis, Rick Sternbach, Sir Patrick Stewart, Kitty Swink, George Takei, Connor Trinneer, Karl Urban, Nana Visitor, Garrett Wang, and Michael Westmore.

Next up is Shore Leave, to be held Aug. 7-9 at the Baltimore Hunt Valley Inn in Hunt Valley, Maryland. In attendance at Shore Leave will be Daniel Davis (Professor James Moriarty).

The Steel City Con will be held Aug. 7-9 at the Monroeville Convention Center in Monroeville, Pennsylvania. In attendance at Steel City Con will be Nichelle Nichols.

The Dublin Comic Con will be held Aug. 8-9 at the Convention Centre Dublin in Dublin, Ireland. In attendance at Dublin Comic Con will be Gates McFadden.

The Windsor ComiCon will be held Aug. 15-16 at the Caesars Windsor in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. In attendance at Windsor ComiCon will be Marina Sirtis.

Crypticon Kansas City will take place Aug. 21-23 at the Howard Johnson Plaza in Kansas City, Missouri. In attendance at Crypticon Kansas City will be Sid Haig, Chris Sarandon, and Tony Todd.

Walker Stalker Con will be held Aug. 22-23 at the Westin Waterfront in Boston, Massachusetts. In attendance at Walker Stalker Con will be Denise Crosby.

The Central Coast Comic Con will take place Aug. 28-30 at the Ventura County Fairgrounds in Ventura, California. In attendance at Central Coast Comic Con will be Sid Haig (Lawgiver in Return of the Archons) and Deep Roy.

Wrapping up August will be the Bournemouth Film & Comic Con, to be held Aug. 29-30 at the Bournemouth International Centre in Bournemouth, England. In attendance at the Bournemouth Film & Comic Con will be Max Grodenchik.

September begins with Fan Expo Canada, which will be held Sept. 3-6 at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. In attendance at Fan Expo Canada will be Jeffrey Combs, Malcolm McDowell, Jennifer Morrison, Kate Mulgrew, Ethan Phillips, Robert Picardo, and Jeri Ryan.

Dragon*Con will take place Sept. 4-7 at several hotels in Atlanta, Georgia. In attendance at Dragon*Con will be Terry Farrell, Jonathan Frakes, Gary Lockwood, and Paul McGillion.

Wizard World Comic Con San Jose will be held Sept. 4-6 at the San Jose Convention Center in San Jose, California. In attendance at Wizard World Comic Con San Jose will be Adrienne Barbeau.

The Alamo City Comic Con will be held Sept. 11-13 at the Henry B. Gonzalez Convention Center in San Antonio, Texas. In attendance at Alamo City Comic Con will be Olivia d’Abo and Ron Perlman.

The Wizard World Comic Con Pittsburgh will be held Sept. 11-13 at the David L. Lawrence Convention Center in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Appearing at Wizard World Comic Con Pittsburgh will be Colm Meaney and William Shatner.

RocCon will be held Sept. 11-13 at the Kodak Event Center in Rochester, New York. In attendance at RocCon will be Nichelle Nichols and Marina Sirtis.

Wizard World Comic Con Columbus will be held Sept. 18-20 at the Greater Columbus Convention Center in Columbus, Ohio. Appearing at Wizard World Comic Con Columbus will be Brent Spiner.

The Rose City Comic Con will be held Sept. 19-20 at the Oregon Convention Center in Portland, Oregon. In attendance at Rose City Comic Con will be Walter Koenig, Nichelle Nichols, and Wil Wheaton.

The Salt Lake Comic Con will be held Sept. 24-26 at the Salt Palace in Salt Lake City, Utah. Walter Koenig will be appearing at the Salt Lake Comic Con.

September wraps up with the London Comic Con, to be held Sept. 25-27 at the Western Fair District in London, Ontario, Canada. In attendance at the London Comic Con will be Nicole de Boer and Ron Perlman.

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Shatner To Pen Book On Nimoy http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/shatner-to-pen-book-on-nimoy/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/shatner-to-pen-book-on-nimoy/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:45:58 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41245 William Shatner is planning on writing a book about his friend Leonard Nimoy.

Shatner considered Nimoy to be a brother to him.

“I’m writing a book about Leonard,” said Shatner. “I had a brother, whose life arc was so much like mine that we understood each other completely. Our age, our birth, the same types of problems in our marriages – our careers arced in the same manner.

“We had a great deal in common, Leonard and I. And thusly we were able to understand each other. I’ve lost a dear friend.”

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Star Trek Beyond Building Continues http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-beyond-building-continues/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-beyond-building-continues/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:42:43 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41236 More photographs from the Star Trek Beyond set have emerged.

Five new photos show the progress made in building the set which began back in May.

STB-1

The first photo shows the bare bones of the set back in May.

STB-2

The second photo shows what appeared to be a building with some broken trees on it.

STB-3

In the third photo, it becomes clear that the second photo was not a building, but hills with broken trees. The plywood of the second photo has been covered with dirt.

STB-4

STB-5

In the last two photos, the “hills” set is being expanded.

Larger-sized photos are available at the referring site.

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Trinneer In Western Horror http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/trinneer-in-western-horror/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/trinneer-in-western-horror/#comments Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:14:05 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41232 Fans of Connor Trinneer will be able to see the actor in a western horror movie set to release on DVD and VOD beginning August 4.

The movie is called A Good Day To Die.

In A Good Day To Die, “Baron Emerson uses his vast wealth to travel the world and hunt. He does not hunt animals, he hunts warriors. The Baron arrives at the American frontier and is looking for his next prey. An outlaw gunslinger named Chamberlin who is in jail and set to be hanged. The Baron arranges for Chamberlin to be freed so that he can hunt him like an animal in a bloody game of life and death in the Wild West.”

Trinneer portrays the hunted Chamberlin, while Robert Koroluck is the hunter Baron Emerson. Others included in A Good Day To Die include Nadia Lanfranconi, Jay Kown, and Leia Perez.

A Good Day To Die was written and directed by Rene Perez.

The movie has already made its European debut, where it was released under the title Prey For Death.

For US fans, to pre-order A Good Day To Die, which sells for $8.46, head to the link located here.

 

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Beam Me Up Scotty Figurines http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/beam-me-up-scotty-figurines/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/beam-me-up-scotty-figurines/#comments Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:10:46 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41229 Two new original series figures feature Kirk and Spock in the process of “beaming up.”

The figures will be available from Funko beginning next month.

Each poseable figure is 3 3/4″ in height and features a beaming effect (the bottom part of each character shows this effect). “Captain James T. Kirk [and Spock have five] points of articulation and features unique accessories and the 1980s style card back design.”

The Beaming Kirk and Spock ReAction figures will ship next month. Each sells for $12.99 and can be pre-ordered here for Kirk, and here for Spock.

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UK Auction To Feature Spock Costume http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/uk-auction-to-feature-spock-costume/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/uk-auction-to-feature-spock-costume/#comments Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:08:35 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41226 TrekUKAuction073015

An auction to be held in the UK this autumn will feature a costume worn by Leonard Nimoy.

The Prop Store and Odeon Entertainment Memorabilia Live Auction will take place September 23.

The catalog for the auction isn’t available yet, but at least two Star Trek items will be auctioned.

A costume worn by Nimoy during the second season (blue shirt and black trousers) will be up for auction, and is expected to fetch up to £70,000.

Also in the auction will be a model starship used in The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine.

Other non-Trek items of interest include a Star Wars stormtrooper helmet, Arnold Schwarzenegger‘s jacket from Terminator 3, a Lord of the Rings Witch King’s dagger, and a set of claws worn by Hugh Jackman in X2:X-Men United.

In all, four-hundred-and-fifty items will be auctioned.

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Pine To Star In Wonder Woman http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pine-to-star-in-wonder-woman/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pine-to-star-in-wonder-woman/#comments Wed, 29 Jul 2015 17:57:20 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41222 PineWonderWoman052815

Back in May, TrekToday reported that Chris Pine was in negotiations to star in Warner Bros. Wonder Woman; today comes word that Pine has signed on for the role.

Pine will be playing Steve Trevor, Diana Prince’s love interest.

In the Wonder Woman comics, Trevor “was an intelligence officer in the United States Army during World War II whose plane crashed on Paradise Island, the isolated homeland of the Amazons. He was nursed back to health by the Amazon princess Diana, who fell in love with him and followed him when he returned to the outside world. There she became Wonder Woman (and also his co-worker, Diana Prince).”

Pine’s deal reportedly includes sequel options.

Written by Jason Fuchs, Wonder Woman will be directed by Patty Jenkins. Pine will be starring with Gal Gadot, who will take on the role of Diana Prince.

Wonder Woman will be released June 23, 2017.

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Pegg Teases Elba Character http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pegg-teases-elba-character/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pegg-teases-elba-character/#comments Wed, 29 Jul 2015 17:54:46 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41218 Elba072915

Simon Pegg spoke briefly about the character that Idris Elba will be playing in Star Trek Beyond.

The character that Elba will be playing will be unique, Pegg promised.

“It’s a really interesting, complex character,” said Pegg. “We shouldn’t expect to see anything like Benedict Cumberbatch‘s creepy genius Khan from Star Trek Into Darkness in Elba’s performance, however. His performance is all his own.”

There’s a good reason that Elba’s villain is different than Cumberbatch’s. “Only because it would be a retread,” said Pegg. “What we don’t want to do is have the same kind of villain with the same motivation.”

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Old August 24 2013, 10:40 PM   #181
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Interestingly, I've been told there are indications that in the 24th century Starfleet keeps a Constitution-class starship "USS Republic" in service as a training vessel; something about the Connies makes them great teaching tools for cadets, maybe?
The "indications" come from the episode "Valiant", where even the ignorant civilian Jake Sisko has heard of the famous training ship Republic. No class identity is given for that ship, other than her being at least fifty years old. Might be Starfleet is now in the habit of building dedicated training ships that all are named Republic - indeed, the one from TOS "Court Martial" may have been a purpose-built training ship already, for all we know, carrying an already venerable name. Or then Starfleet for some other reason has chosen to employ a generic starship named Republic as a training ship again in the 24th century.

Assuming, of course, that the TOS ship either was a training ship by design or served in a training role. There's no direct evidence of either: any regular frontline starship might have filled the dramatic role of the ship where Ensign Kirk serves "several years" after graduation. We only indirectly know that Kirk should still have been associated with the Academy at Ensign rank (supposedly as an instructor), thus the Republic should have been somehow associated as well. But not necessarily as a training vessel.

I guess the only pressing reason to think that the Republic of the 24th century is not the one from Kirk's past is that Picard insists the Constitution class only exists as a single hull in a museum as of the 2360s. But he may well be speaking of the unrefitted version, and the Republic might have received a refit.

Or then the Republic from Kirk's past never had anything even remotely to do with the Constitution class. After all, we have no good reason to think she did.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old August 25 2013, 12:14 AM   #182
yenny
Captain
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Timo wrote: View Post
Interestingly, I've been told there are indications that in the 24th century Starfleet keeps a Constitution-class starship "USS Republic" in service as a training vessel; something about the Connies makes them great teaching tools for cadets, maybe?
The "indications" come from the episode "Valiant", where even the ignorant civilian Jake Sisko has heard of the famous training ship Republic. No class identity is given for that ship, other than her being at least fifty years old. Might be Starfleet is now in the habit of building dedicated training ships that all are named Republic - indeed, the one from TOS "Court Martial" may have been a purpose-built training ship already, for all we know, carrying an already venerable name. Or then Starfleet for some other reason has chosen to employ a generic starship named Republic as a training ship again in the 24th century.

Assuming, of course, that the TOS ship either was a training ship by design or served in a training role. There's no direct evidence of either: any regular frontline starship might have filled the dramatic role of the ship where Ensign Kirk serves "several years" after graduation. We only indirectly know that Kirk should still have been associated with the Academy at Ensign rank (supposedly as an instructor), thus the Republic should have been somehow associated as well. But not necessarily as a training vessel.

I guess the only pressing reason to think that the Republic of the 24th century is not the one from Kirk's past is that Picard insists the Constitution class only exists as a single hull in a museum as of the 2360s. But he may well be speaking of the unrefitted version, and the Republic might have received a refit.

Or then the Republic from Kirk's past never had anything even remotely to do with the Constitution class. After all, we have no good reason to think she did.

Timo Saloniemi
They had never establish the age of the USS. Republic. All they had said, is that she was a old ship and she haven't left the solar system for over fifty years.

True she may or may not be a Constitution class starship, or the same ship that Captain James T. Kirk had serve on. But Ronald D. Moore, the person that had written the episode, believes that it is the same ship.

Here is the script itself. http://www.st-minutiae.com/academy/l...ure329/546.txt

Last edited by yenny; August 25 2013 at 03:08 AM.
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Old August 25 2013, 12:57 AM   #183
J.T.B.
Commodore
 
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
For the fourth time, it doesn't EXCLUDE destroying the enemy. That is simply not the GOAL of defensive action, which is why a defensive action that manages to destroy the enemy can still fail as a defensive action. That is the whole point of the distinction, in fact: an offensive action is taken for the singular goal of eliminating the enemy forces from the battlefield, one way or another. Defensive action is something you to do prevent your OWN elimination.
Offensive vs. defensive isn't a very useful distinction for a lot of naval combat. Without fixed objectives, fortifications etc. on "the battlefield" the meeting of fleet units in the open ocean can involve both and change back and forth. The best defense against an enemy fleet has often been said to be finding the enemy and destroying it, wherever it may be, which is what led to some criticism of Admiral Spruance at the Battle of the Philippine Sea.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Because the nature of torpedo attacks -- particularly in World War-II -- means this is necessarily a counter-attack, which is a type of offensive action. This is such, because firing a torpedo at the enemy immediately forces HIM to go on a defensive footing and take measures to avoid getting killed by your torpedo, either by firing deck guns in an attempt to detonate that torpedo or (if it's too deep or doesn't leave a trail) by taking evasive action to avoid it.
Here we can see the murkiness. For instance the High Seas Fleet at Jutland had its T crossed, abandoned action and basically ran for its life. That would seem to put it on the defensive according to the standard above, trying to prevent its own elimination. But its destroyer screen covers its escape with a torpedo attack, and the Grand Fleet is forced to evade. The defensive force taking offensive action and vice versa.
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Old August 25 2013, 02:52 AM   #184
Crazy Eddie
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Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
Offensive vs. defensive isn't a very useful distinction for a lot of naval combat.
You'd be surprised. The Mk-41 VLS system, for example, comes in three varieties: the "defensive" package, the "tactical" package and "strike" package. IIRC, the only difference between them is the length of the tubes: the "defensive" packs are short enough that they can only carry Standards and Sea Sparrows while the "strike" packages can carry Tomahawks and Harpoons. "Tactical," I believe, is the same as the defensive package except that it can carry extended range Standards and ASROCs.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Because the nature of torpedo attacks -- particularly in World War-II -- means this is necessarily a counter-attack, which is a type of offensive action. This is such, because firing a torpedo at the enemy immediately forces HIM to go on a defensive footing and take measures to avoid getting killed by your torpedo, either by firing deck guns in an attempt to detonate that torpedo or (if it's too deep or doesn't leave a trail) by taking evasive action to avoid it.
Here we can see the murkiness. For instance the High Seas Fleet at Jutland had its T crossed, abandoned action and basically ran for its life. That would seem to put it on the defensive according to the standard above, trying to prevent its own elimination. But its destroyer screen covers its escape with a torpedo attack, and the Grand Fleet is forced to evade. The defensive force taking offensive action and vice versa.
As I said, in a real battle a military unit will, in part or in whole, switch stances from offensive to defensive and back again multiple times depending on what's going on. As in the example I mentioned upthread: hapless A-4 pilot had to jump from offensive to defensive and wound up flying a toilet bowl where he was basically doing both at the same time.

Every time a starship raises its shields, takes evasive action, shoots down an enemy torpedo or tries to conceal itself, it is taking defensive action and/or assuming a defensive posture. When the same starship arms its weapons, locks weapons on target, fires them or moves to a firing position, it is taking offensive action and/or assuming an offensive posture. Sometimes you can sort of do both at the same time (pivot at warp two, give him all forward tubes as he passes) but in most cases you're considered to be on the offensive if your action is intended to directly neutralize the enemy.
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Old August 25 2013, 07:25 AM   #185
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
So you're saying that a "defensive action is something you do to prevent your OWN elimination" and you agree that "it doesn't EXCLUDE destroying the enemy." So why are you objecting to torpedoes used as defensive fire against an enemy ship as it doesn't contradict those parameters?
Because the nature of torpedo attacks -- particularly in World War-II -- means this is necessarily a counter-attack, which is a type of offensive action.
A Counter-Attack is defined as an attack against an enemy attacking force by a defending force which still makes it a defensive action and is listed as a "defensive tactic".

The nature of the defensive fire aka counter-attack isn't any different than getting your tailgunner to fire bullets at an attacking enemy plane or a soldier using his gun to defend his position against attacking enemy soldiers.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
This is such, because firing a torpedo at the enemy immediately forces HIM to go on a defensive footing and take measures to avoid getting killed by your torpedo, either by firing deck guns in an attempt to detonate that torpedo or (if it's too deep or doesn't leave a trail) by taking evasive action to avoid it.
Forcing an attacking enemy ship to take evasive action or go on the defense can buy time for a defending ship to escape. I believe I said it here:

blssdwlf wrote:
Aft torpedo tubes are more like aft tubes on a submarine to discourage pursuers when it needed to escape, IMHO.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Phasers have use as defensive weapons since they can be used to intercept enemy missiles and torpedoes and protect the ship itself. Photon torpedoes are primarily anti-ship weapons; you fire them, and the ENEMY has to go defensive if he wants to survive. If he doesn't want to survive, he might just ignore your torpedoes, take the hits on the chin, and immediately fire back without loosing the initiative.
Since a defensive action aka counterattack can destroy an attacking enemy ship then firing photon torpedoes in defense to destroy (or disable) an enemy ship is a valid defense.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Yes, and when it self-shutdown, they could run down to engineering to pull the connections and start restoring control of the ship. Scotty's automation didn't give them that option.
Pulling the plug on M5 wouldn't have given them control of the ship, it just guaranteed that M5 wouldn't "change its mind" and take control again. Kirk left himself open to attack on purpose, knowing that 1) he couldn't effectively fight back if he wanted to and 2) Commodore Wesley would probably spare the ship if he thought it was open to attack.
When M-5 was neutralized, they were regaining control of the ship. They had about 1 minute but they were doing something to restore control. At the very minimum, they were forcing the shields to stay down and working on communications at the same time.
KIRK: Intership communications. This is the captain speaking. In approximately one minute, we'll be attacked by Federation starships.
The M-5 no longer controls the ship, but neither do we control it. The M-5 has left itself, and us, open for destruction.
For whatever satisfaction we may get from the knowledge, our nineteen lives will buy the survival of over one thousand of our fellow starship crewmen.
...
SPOCK: The force field is gone, Captain. M-5 is neutralised.
SCOTT: System's coming back. I can give you power for the shields, sir.
KIRK: I need communications.
SCOTT: That'll take longer.
KIRK: Then cut power.
SCOTT: Sir!
KIRK: Cut power. Keep those shields down.
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It probably IS the Jefferies Tube, or something similar to it. Either way, it's not actually part of the engine room; in the director's cut of TWOK we see Kirk and Saavik and Spock using a similar ladderway to climb between decks after leaving the transporter room because turbolifts are inoperative below C-deck.
A "similar" ladderway doesn't mean it is not part of engineering. Since the specific one Scotty and engineer are in has some sort of panel that the two seem to be working on when Scotty says they're finishing the automation we are left with that specific ladder is part of engineering.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
... would have been an option BEFORE the Klingons hit them with a photon torpedo. The first thing Kirk says after they get hit is "emergency power!" they're in almost the same shape they were in right after Khan's torpedo strike.
Were they? Right after Khan's torpedo strike they still had power for a few phaser shots. Here the automation completely took them out of the game with apparently no chance for a manual override.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
With a sizeable damage control team in engineering,
Kirk's damage control party was 4 guys, not counting McCoy.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Kirk might have been able to stall Kruge for a couple of minutes until his staff could run to engineering and try to get the power systems online, but that would only count for one last, suicidal gesture after which the Klingons would have blown him to bits. His "You have two minutes to surrender" was his hold card, and Kruge called his bluff.
It's Kirk - of course it'd work! Anyway, the point is that for 5 minutes (Surrender talks, David's death) + 2 minutes (Kruge) = 7 minutes of time they did nothing indicating that there was no way to override the automation.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Watch it in live action: the shadow is present both before and after the torpedo strike, and is therefore from an external light source (either Genesis itself or the central star in the system).

The light from the TORPEDO actually spills over the starboard side of the saucer -- no shading from the bridge module -- and partially washes out that shadow with the "secondary" explosions.
That spillover is from all the sparking. The hit location however should have eliminated that starboard shadow from the light source. Instead, we can see that it is glowing behind the hump that is in front of the impulse housing. This tells us it cannot be directly between the impulse and bridge because the slope would illuminate the impulse evenly.




Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Given that there are several planets that the cadets can practice exploring in system, like Earth or experiments from orbit like Venus, Mars, Jupiter, etc
Missions to which would have been handled by Academy annexes at those locations, serving proving grounds that had been setup ahead of time so the cadets would have a safe place to train (as NASA basically does with its neutral buoyancy tanks and the terrain simulators from the old lunar missions).
Which is all good and well but then that would negate the need for an actual training ship. Once they're done with training at these annexes then it would make sense to do it for real on an actual training ship

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
More importantly, Starfleet officers seem to spend most of their time exploring Earthlike planets in shirtsleeve environments. How many Earthlike planets exist in the Sol system?
One - Earth. And that's a good one since they have a known target to verify their sensor readings with and do training beam downs and exploration.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
They would've called the Excelsior and have them fire the torpedo? But since they were carrying it and their mission was an escort mission then it stands to reason that the ship will normally carry scientific equipment. So the training ship would have carried scientific equipment along with her live torpedoes.
That would fit, IF Enterprise was being used as a training vessel in TUC. If it was being used as a technology testbed or something similar, then the analytic equipment would have been the prototype for the gear that was later fitted on the Excelsior.
We know from TWOK she carried live torpedoes. After some safe simulator training on Earth, they went on board a training ship with the real weapons. There is no reason to believe that the Enterprise as a training ship or Enterprise-A as an active duty ship would go out without actual equipment.
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Old August 25 2013, 12:45 PM   #186
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

I always figured that the Mirandas must be cheap to produce and/or operate. And at the same time they were probably considered pretty "reliable" and versatile, even though they were neither very powerful nor very fast.

Sort of a Volkswagen Beetle-type starship or the equivalent to the Russian Soyuz spacecraft.

Well, only that the Excelsior-class seemed to fulfill to a similar role too, as a larger version though (this makes the Excelsior-class the Toyota Corolla of space, I guess :-P ).
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Old August 27 2013, 06:31 PM   #187
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
When M-5 was neutralized, they were regaining control of the ship. They had about 1 minute but they were doing something to restore control. At the very minimum, they were forcing the shields to stay down and working on communications at the same time.
Which wouldn't have been an issue of M5 hadn't gone out of its way to sabotage the override system in the first place (and even re-route controls to prevent them from disconnecting it while it was still operational). Under normal circumstances, full vessel control would have been restored by the touch of a button.

A "similar" ladderway doesn't mean it is not part of engineering.
None of those ladderways are IN engineering (e.g. the engine room, where the intermix/energizers are located). If he's even inside the secondary hull, he is at least one bulkhead/compartment removed from it.

Since the specific one Scotty and engineer are in has some sort of panel
The panel is on the wall behind the ladder. We don't know if it's a feature of the tube itself or something the other engineer had installed there for some other reason.

For that matter, we don't even know if Scotty was working on the computer at the time Kirk called him. For all we know, he'd gone up to C-deck to repair an air leak while his two programming techs were finishing up the testing with the firmware upgrades.

Were they? Right after Khan's torpedo strike they still had power for a few phaser shots. Here the automation completely took them out of the game with apparently no chance for a manual override.
Except in Wrath of Khan they had a full crew aboard (albiet with trainees) which would have included techs in the phaser room and in engineering to make sure those "few shots" were even available. With those rooms empty, they have no options; at full power they MIGHT have been able to charge the phasers remotely, but with the mains out and the computers damaged, that would have to have been done manually.

That spillover is from all the sparking.
No it isn't. It's only present on the saucer at the exact moment of impact and then doesn't appear again.

The hit location however should have eliminated that starboard shadow from the light source.
It partially did:


And I'll remind you that your original claim was that the shadow was being caused by the TORPEDO. It clearly isn't, and you can plainly see the glow from the impact's secondary effects partially wash out the pre-existing shadow. That means the impact point was noticeably farther forward from the impulse engines, at least halfway to the bridge if not closer.

Which is all good and well but then that would negate the need for an actual training ship.
You wouldn't take a training ship to teach cadets how to conduct away missions or surveys on planetary bodies. You use a training ship to teach them how to run the ship. If you want to practice surveying a planet, escaping/evading hostile aliens, surviving in harsh environments or moving around in zero gravity/EVAs, there are a thousand places in the solar system you can go, all accessible by shuttlecraft. Even starship operations can be partially simulated -- this, too, we have actually seen -- so the only reason they need a training vessel is to experience running a real-live starship actually in space, outside of the simulator.

One - Earth. And that's a good one since they have a known target to verify their sensor readings with and do training beam downs and exploration.
For which reason, they would not need a TRAINING SHIP.

We know from TWOK she carried live torpedoes. After some safe simulator training on Earth, they went on board a training ship with the real weapons. There is no reason to believe that the Enterprise as a training ship or Enterprise-A as an active duty ship would go out without actual equipment.
That all depends on what the Enterprise-A was being used for. Unlike Excelsior, she was not seen being actively engaged in the "cataloging gaseous anomalies" missions, so it again goes to the question of what exactly the Enterprise-A was FOR. Training vessel or technology testbed or even Sol System Patrol Vessel are all possibilities, but each mission would imply a slightly different ship fitting.
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Old August 28 2013, 06:53 PM   #188
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Well, the circumstances that led to the original Enterprise being a training ship are rather unclear... as are the particular circumstances of why the Enterprise refit was so special in the first place, given that we've never seen one exactly like it on screen.

I think you can interpret what is seen in TFF and TUC different viable ways, among them the notion that the ship was not active as a frontline vessel.
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Old August 29 2013, 05:04 AM   #189
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
When M-5 was neutralized, they were regaining control of the ship. They had about 1 minute but they were doing something to restore control. At the very minimum, they were forcing the shields to stay down and working on communications at the same time.
Which wouldn't have been an issue of M5 hadn't gone out of its way to sabotage the override system in the first place (and even re-route controls to prevent them from disconnecting it while it was still operational). Under normal circumstances, full vessel control would have been restored by the touch of a button.
But very comparable. M5's control sabotaged the override system but once disconnected, they were able to begin overriding the system. It's not that different from Scotty's automation system except that once it was disabled, there was no way for them to override it manually.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
A "similar" ladderway doesn't mean it is not part of engineering.
None of those ladderways are IN engineering (e.g. the engine room, where the intermix/energizers are located). If he's even inside the secondary hull, he is at least one bulkhead/compartment removed from it.
Well these spaces were not in the engine room but were still part of engineering. The primary energy circuits, the main energizer, the service crawlway.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The panel is on the wall behind the ladder. We don't know if it's a feature of the tube itself or something the other engineer had installed there for some other reason.

For that matter, we don't even know if Scotty was working on the computer at the time Kirk called him. For all we know, he'd gone up to C-deck to repair an air leak while his two programming techs were finishing up the testing with the firmware upgrades.
Or he and his tech could be wiring up the automation from one system to another through these access points. Or that area is on another level of engineering.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Except in Wrath of Khan they had a full crew aboard (albiet with trainees) which would have included techs in the phaser room and in engineering to make sure those "few shots" were even available. With those rooms empty, they have no options; at full power they MIGHT have been able to charge the phasers remotely, but with the mains out and the computers damaged, that would have to have been done manually.
It's not much different than "The Doomsday Machine"? The ship was smashed and 4 guys were able to get the ship to function on manual controls. The only difference in TSFS is that they didn't try after Scotty's automation went dead suggesting no manual control was available once it went down.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
No it isn't. It's only present on the saucer at the exact moment of impact and then doesn't appear again.
Well if it doesn't appear again it's not the point of impact and part of the sparking.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It partially did:


And I'll remind you that your original claim was that the shadow was being caused by the TORPEDO. It clearly isn't, and you can plainly see the glow from the impact's secondary effects partially wash out the pre-existing shadow. That means the impact point was noticeably farther forward from the impulse engines, at least halfway to the bridge if not closer.
And I'll remind you that the expanding blast is behind that hump in front of the impulse engine which has a shadow casting to the starboard side. If it was closer to the bridge it would be in front of the hump and not behind it.



Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
You wouldn't take a training ship to teach cadets how to conduct away missions or surveys on planetary bodies. You use a training ship to teach them how to run the ship. If you want to practice surveying a planet, escaping/evading hostile aliens, surviving in harsh environments or moving around in zero gravity/EVAs, there are a thousand places in the solar system you can go, all accessible by shuttlecraft. Even starship operations can be partially simulated -- this, too, we have actually seen -- so the only reason they need a training vessel is to experience running a real-live starship actually in space, outside of the simulator.
So the only cadets that get any actual training on a real training ship is the bridge crew? The transporter crew, the maintenance crew that need to do EVAs and other non-ship crew are out of luck?

A live training ship would be training the cadets on doing what they're expected to do on a real ship. There would be no good reason to limit the ship to only a flying exercise.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
One - Earth. And that's a good one since they have a known target to verify their sensor readings with and do training beam downs and exploration.
For which reason, they would not need a TRAINING SHIP.
Sure they would. To operate the sensors. Determine a beam down point. Transport down and back up. Practice, practice - from a real ship in orbit.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
We know from TWOK she carried live torpedoes. After some safe simulator training on Earth, they went on board a training ship with the real weapons. There is no reason to believe that the Enterprise as a training ship or Enterprise-A as an active duty ship would go out without actual equipment.
That all depends on what the Enterprise-A was being used for. Unlike Excelsior, she was not seen being actively engaged in the "cataloging gaseous anomalies" missions, so it again goes to the question of what exactly the Enterprise-A was FOR. Training vessel or technology testbed or even Sol System Patrol Vessel are all possibilities, but each mission would imply a slightly different ship fitting.
I see two different issues here. The training ship Enterprise would have a standard but functional load of equipment since she had live torpedoes she would also have everything else working.

Since the Excelsior had the gear for the duration of Sulu's 3 year mission then the E-A carrying the same kind of gear would suggest that Starfleet was making that a standard load and/or the E-A was going to or already does patrol near the Klingons, IMHO.
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Old August 29 2013, 07:14 AM   #190
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
But very comparable. M5's control sabotaged the override system but once disconnected, they were able to begin overriding the system. It's not that different from Scotty's automation system except that once it was disabled, there was no way for them to override it manually.
That's supposition again. It is a complete unknown whether or not the ship could even be operated with that small a crew without the automation center in place; it stands to reason that it couldn't, or else Scotty wouldn't have bothered hooking it up.

It also goes unmentioned that the automation center may or may not be a standard feature aboard the Constitution class, something that can afford limited control of ship's systems in am emergency. In which case, the only thing Scotty would need in order to set it up would be to beam over and put in the password to activate it.

It's not much different than "The Doomsday Machine"? The ship was smashed and 4 guys were able to get the ship to function on manual controls.
They were able to get it to MOVE with manual controls, and then not particularly well. Eventually, they rigged it to maneuver with only a SINGLE person at the controls, which we have also seen half a dozen times in the total history of Star Trek.

So why did Scotty rig an automation center in the first place?

Well if it doesn't appear again it's not the point of impact and part of the sparking.
The "sparking" occurs after the impact, not during. Three things happen here:

1) Torpedo approaches Enterprise (note the shadow next to the impulse deck



2) Torpedo HITS Enterprise (note the entire starboard portion of the saucer AND THE BRIDGE DOME illuminated, as is the impulse deck; note the shadow is partially glared out but is still almost noticeable)



3) Sparkly after effects (note the shadow is still present but is again partially glared out be the sparks).

The impact point cannot be to port of the impulse deck, because if it was the bridge would cast a shadow on the starboard side of the saucer at the moment of impact (it clearly does not), as seen in the second image. More importantly, Kruge's torpedo is only visible for all of four frames, during which time it crosses in front of the bridge, from right to left, immediately before impact.

From the camera's point of view, the torpedo could not have passed in front of the bridge AND hit saucer on the port side; the explosion certainly wouldn't have illuminated the STARBOARD side of the bridge dome, as it clearly does in slowmo.

And I'll remind you that the expanding blast is behind that hump in front of the impulse engine which has a shadow casting to the starboard side.
What does that prove since that shadow was already present before the torpedo even hit them?

So the only cadets that get any actual training on a real training ship is the bridge crew? The transporter crew, the maintenance crew that need to do EVAs and other non-ship crew are out of luck?
Quite the opposite, in fact. The whole reason for having a training mission is so that all of the cadets learn how to do their jobs under shipboard conditions: how to do an EVA on a starship in deep space, how to file reports to a shipboard department head, how perform routine maintenance in a crawlspace, how to troubleshoot a bad guidance system on a torpedo using the ship's own equipment (FYI: one of my favorite odd jobs) and so on. It's a chance to get out of the simulator and into the real deal. Having the crew go on surface excursions -- away from the ship into what could only be yet another controlled/simulated environment -- would defeat the whole purpose of a training mission.

Besides, a lot of the equipment they'd have on board for such a mission would be specialized for training purposes in particular. The Navy does this all the time with recoverable munitions -- particularly torpedoes -- and sometimes fitting out surface vessels or submarines with extra components that allow them to realistically simulate major battle damage for the trainees to repair. Starfleet's all about realism on these trips, which is part of the reason why their simulators often burst into flames when the cadets screw up; realism in a safe environment is fairly difficult to achieve and would require equipment far more specialized than most starships actually carry.

Since the Excelsior had the gear for the duration of Sulu's 3 year mission then the E-A carrying the same kind of gear would suggest that Starfleet was making that a standard load and/or the E-A was going to or already does patrol near the Klingons, IMHO.
Which begs the question: What was Enterprise doing in Spacedock again, with Kirk and crew three months from retirement, and inexplicably in need of a helmsman? That, to me, always suggested that Kirk pretty much grabbed his entire bridge crew -- Spock et al -- from the Academy faculty lounge, kicked off (most of) the cadets and then went on his mission with a volunteer helmsman who may or may not have just finished training on that very same ship two semesters ago.
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Old August 29 2013, 09:59 PM   #191
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Valeris probably wasn't grabbed or otherwise decided upon by Kirk, as she was Cartwright's inside gal... The dramatically likely turn of events here would be that the previous helmsman met with a force majeure that wasn't as innocent as it sounded. Although Valeris could also simply have been dictated upon Kirk, or infiltrated into Spock's inner circle long in advance (Spock was in the process of betraying Starfleet to the Klingons, as far as Cartwright was concerned).

James "Nixon" Kirk was quite probably given the clearance to kick out the ship's bridge officers, so that he and he alone could show the Klingons the hot end of the phasers / act as the perfect scapegoat. That as such wouldn't tell us whether the ship was until then crewed for a standard exploration/defense mission, serving as a training ship, or cold-rotting in long term storage - or even being displayed as a museum piece.

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Old August 30 2013, 05:02 PM   #192
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

We can, however, rule out "standard mission" because of Kirk's circumstances: he's on Earth, three months from retirement, and has to move back into his quarters and unpack for this insane mission Spock just volunteered him for. Meanhile, Scotty just bought a boat, Uhura's supposed to be doing a seminar at the Academy and Bones is wondering where Sulu is (has either forgotten or is unaware that Sulu is now commanding the Excelsior).

This all suggests the "crew of the Enterprise" haven't been together ON the Enterprise in quite some time, assuming they've even been together at all (McCoy, at least, has not) and have been involved in a whole bunch of other non-starship related things in recent months. Three months from retirement, they are not about to start a brand new deep-space exploration mission and they're certainly not just coming BACK from one.

So I'm thinking that they're not a "crew" at that moment so much as a loose association of senior officers who continue to find themselves in highly influential positions; Kirk and Uhura (and possibly Spock) are still instructors at the Academy, Chekov is either between assignments or getting ready for his next command (First choice for Enterprise-B with Harriman as backup?) Bones is off somewhere being Bones. It's not even certain that they've been together on the Enterprise since the Sha Ka Ree fiasco; considering the anomalously high ranks of the entire bridge crew at this point, it's pretty unlikely that they were.
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Old August 30 2013, 05:23 PM   #193
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Bones is wondering where Sulu is (has either forgotten or is unaware that Sulu is now commanding the Excelsior).
Seeing how he and his tricorder have completely forgotten Klingon anatomy at the most inopportune of times, I don't find this the least bit surprising. I love TUC as a film, but it had some really serious continuity problems.
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Old August 30 2013, 07:43 PM   #194
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

We can, however, rule out "standard mission"
...For the hero crew, yes. The ship, on the other hand, may have been on a "standard mission" just two weeks ago, with 415 of her crew still the same when Kirk comes aboard and launches the definitely nonstandard mission of escorting Gorkon to Earth.

So I'm thinking that they're not a "crew" at that moment so much as a loose association of senior officers who continue to find themselves in highly influential positions
Very much agreed.

Kirk and Uhura (and possibly Spock) are still instructors at the Academy
Or then not. There was nothing Academy-related about Kirk in either ST5 or ST6, and while Uhura may have been part of the regular crew of the schoolship Enterprise in ST2, this is not confirmed. Whether her seminar would be related to the Academy, or even to Starfleet at all, is unknown.

Chekov is either between assignments or getting ready for his next command
Or then part of the regular crew of the E-A, as he is basically the only one who isn't indicated not to be such.

(First choice for Enterprise-B with Harriman as backup?)
Hmm. If Starfleet wanted somebody from Kirk's posse for the E-B (beyond the photo-op), why not take Kirk? It's not as if he's past the retirement age yet or anything.

Bones is off somewhere being Bones.
He is out of the loop regarding Sulu, suggesting he might indeed be removed from daily Starfleet activities, but that's basically his only counterindication to being part of the regular E-A crew. And Kirk's retort about it being "Captain Sulu" now should be taken to indicate that Bones has slept past Sulu's promotion somehow - but an obvious way for that to happen is having Bones be somewhere far away from Earth, which might mean he has been aboard the E-A exploring the outer reaches of the known.

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Old August 30 2013, 07:49 PM   #195
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Seeing how he and his tricorder have completely forgotten Klingon anatomy at the most inopportune of times, I don't find this the least bit surprising.
Hmm. As far as I know, Bones never treated a Klingon onscreen before this movie. And his tricorder only scanned Arne Darvin, who had supposedly been altered somehow to pass superficial muster.

"Errand of Mercy": no Bones action with Klingons.
"Trouble with Tribbles": only the Darvin scan.
"Friday's Child": no opportunity to study the Klingon.
"A Private Little War": no opportunity to study the Klingon.
"Day of the Dove": Bones busy with his own crew, but everybody rendered immortal and confused anyway; not a great learning opportunity.
ST:TMP: no opportunity to study Klingons.
ST3: no studying or treating of Klingons, and his marbles were pouched elsewhere anyway.
ST5: no studying or treating of Klingons that we could see, unless there were some hangover cases or STDs or whatnot after the big party.

Timo Saloniemi
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