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Old August 28 2013, 07:39 PM   #166
MacLeod
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

teya wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
The comment from the writers that they had written Kes into a box is not the truth. They were able to come up with good Kes stories up to the last minutes of season 3 and Jeri Taylor was able to come up with good Kes stories in both "Mosaic" and "Pathways", the last one written during season 4. It's really strange how people suddenly lose the ability to write for one character over one night.
Well, here's the thing. I don't agree with you that the stories were good. They were derivative of other stories told hundreds of times before. And, according to the writers, they agree with me.


Not to mention that Kes had more and better stories than Kim during the whole series.
That much is true.

As for Beltran, obviously he was right about the writers. They couldn't come up with stories for some characters and were obviously not doing their job.
Beltran's character started as a racial stereotype & only got worse. How they were supposed to magically fix it is beyond me. And apparently beyond Beltran, who is on record as saying he wasn't supposed to do what Colm Meaney did to keep O'Brien from turning into a stereotype or what Picardo did to get more to do: give the writers ideas.

Thing is, there are times that you simply have to go above and beyond your job description. Beltran chose to whine & complain & trash other people publically instead of doing that.

Being someone who worked her way up from a blue collar job by taking every opportunity thrown at me and running with it, I don't have a whole lot of respect for that.
Well Meany did perhaps one advantage, the creaters of DSN brought him over from TNG. So they wanted O'Brien, perhaps it was to ad a bit of familiarity to the show. They also loved to do the O'Brien must suffer episodes (at least once a year), so they must have felt he was upto the task as an actor.
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Old August 28 2013, 07:43 PM   #167
Lynx
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

teya wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
The comment from the writers that they had written Kes into a box is not the truth. They were able to come up with good Kes stories up to the last minutes of season 3 and Jeri Taylor was able to come up with good Kes stories in both "Mosaic" and "Pathways", the last one written during season 4. It's really strange how people suddenly lose the ability to write for one character over one night.
Well, here's the thing. I don't agree with you that the stories were good. They were derivative of other stories told hundreds of times before. And, according to the writers, they agree with me.


Not to mention that Kes had more and better stories than Kim during the whole series.
That much is true.

As for Beltran, obviously he was right about the writers. They couldn't come up with stories for some characters and were obviously not doing their job.
Beltran's character started as a racial stereotype & only got worse. How they were supposed to magically fix it is beyond me. And apparently beyond Beltran, who is on record as saying he wasn't supposed to do what Colm Meaney did to keep O'Brien from turning into a stereotype or what Picardo did to get more to do: give the writers ideas.

Thing is, there are times that you simply have to go above and beyond your job description. Beltran chose to whine & complain & trash other people publically instead of doing that.

Being someone who worked her way up from a blue collar job by taking every opportunity thrown at me and running with it, I don't have a whole lot of respect for that.
I think that most of the stories which featured Kes were very good. As for the writers, why didn't they come up with better stories? They had all the opportunities in the world to0 do that. If an amateur like me can come up with decent Kes stories, then I expect more than that of professional writers.

As for characters with great mental powers and such, we have had Vulcan senior officers, Klingons, green ensigns & whipping boys, funny aliens and characters searching for their humanity before too and no one is complaining about that.

As for Beltran, maybe he tried to make something better out of Chakotay but wasn't allowed to do so?

In my life and where I live I've learned that you have to stand up and fight for your rights, otherwise you'll be trampled underfoot. Bowing and crawling for the authorities won't get you anywhere.

KaraBear wrote:
That's the thing, every actor would meet with producers and discuss what they wanted out of their characters, if there were any changes they thought could be made and such. From what I heard, there are only two actors who never made time to meet and discuss their characters: Beltran, and Lien.
What I've heard, Beltran had a lot of discussions with the producers about what he wanted out of his character but they constantly ignored everything. After years of trying, he lost his temper and spoke out and I admire him for that.

I don't know if or how Lien had any discussions with those in charge about her character. Maybe she was one of this too nice and friendly people who only did what she was ordered to do and look what happened to her!

But when it comes to acting, she really did a great job in portraying Kes. She really gave life to the character.
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Old August 28 2013, 07:53 PM   #168
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Lynx wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
The comment from the writers that they had written Kes into a box is not the truth. They were able to come up with good Kes stories up to the last minutes of season 3 and Jeri Taylor was able to come up with good Kes stories in both "Mosaic" and "Pathways", the last one written during season 4. It's really strange how people suddenly lose the ability to write for one character over one night.
Well, here's the thing. I don't agree with you that the stories were good. They were derivative of other stories told hundreds of times before. And, according to the writers, they agree with me.




That much is true.



Beltran's character started as a racial stereotype & only got worse. How they were supposed to magically fix it is beyond me. And apparently beyond Beltran, who is on record as saying he wasn't supposed to do what Colm Meaney did to keep O'Brien from turning into a stereotype or what Picardo did to get more to do: give the writers ideas.

Thing is, there are times that you simply have to go above and beyond your job description. Beltran chose to whine & complain & trash other people publically instead of doing that.

Being someone who worked her way up from a blue collar job by taking every opportunity thrown at me and running with it, I don't have a whole lot of respect for that.
I think that most of the stories which featured Kes were very good. As for the writers, why didn't they come up with better stories? They had all the opportunities in the world to0 do that. If an amateur like me can come up with decent Kes stories, then I expect more than that of professional writers.

As for characters with great mental powers and such, we have had Vulcan senior officers, Klingons, green ensigns & whipping boys, funny aliens and characters searching for their humanity before too and no one is complaining about that.

As for Beltran, maybe he tried to make something better out of Chakotay but wasn't allowed to do so?

In my life and where I live I've learned that you have to stand up and fight for your rights, otherwise you'll be trampled underfoot. Bowing and crawling for the authorities won't get you anywhere.

KaraBear wrote:
That's the thing, every actor would meet with producers and discuss what they wanted out of their characters, if there were any changes they thought could be made and such. From what I heard, there are only two actors who never made time to meet and discuss their characters: Beltran, and Lien.
What I've heard, Beltran had a lot of discussions with the producers about what he wanted out of his character but they constantly ignored everything. After years of trying, he lost his temper and spoke out and I admire him for that.

I don't know if or how Lien had any discussions with those in charge about her character. Maybe she was one of this too nice and friendly people who only did what she was ordered to do and look what happened to her!

But when it comes to acting, she really did a great job in portraying Kes. She really gave life to the character.
Lien has said herself she never went to meet with anyone, that doesn't make her too nice, that shows a lack of interest in your job.

I will have to disagree with you about her acting, I think she was not very good. With her you could always see that she was acting, she never BECAME the character like many of the other actors did
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Old August 28 2013, 07:53 PM   #169
Bad Thoughts
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Boxed in? Kes was set up to be Janeway's guide through the Year of Hell. It seems like the writers had plans for the character.
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Old August 28 2013, 07:58 PM   #170
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
Boxed in? Kes was set up to be Janeway's guide through the Year of Hell. It seems like the writers had plans for the character.
I think there were plans for her from the beginning, but I think seeing that she wasn't a strong actor maybe they didn't give her as much
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Old August 28 2013, 07:59 PM   #171
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
. . .They also loved to do the O'Brien must suffer episodes (at least once a year), so they must have felt [Colm Meaney] was upto the task as an actor.
I was actually sad to see him go when he crashed a 747 in a fireball in Die Hard 2, though he was really a minor character.
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Old August 28 2013, 08:00 PM   #172
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
How long does it take that tomato tree to grow from a sapling into a fruit baring bush?

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmonths happened in the last 3 minutes of the show.

but I said 2 to 8 months, depending on how you looked at it, then added another month for stasis, which turned out, thank you, to be only 17 days, but Tuvok would have taken over as Captain before they went into stasis depending on how bad what was wrong with them.

Unless the federation was engineering super seeds...

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/l...540432087.html

It takes 75 to 90 days for a tomato plant to fully mature.

too sick to work + 17 day stasis + almost the entire entire episode + 3 months to grow tomatoes = How long Tom was a Lt Commander.
But they could have been ALIEN Tomatoes from OUTER SPACE and grew in 2 days!

Anyhow, technically we are in agreement, since I say 3-4 months and you say anywhere between 2-8 months, as long as its on the lower end of the spectrum.

As for Tom Paris not being seasoned, I chalk that up to one of the many things the Memory Alpha article talks about not showing a sufficient passage of time. Then again, maybe its because Tom was kicked out of Starfleet to begin with, only to be drafted back into service, so his command style is a lot more looser than the typical Starfleet officer?
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Old August 28 2013, 08:04 PM   #173
KaraBear
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
How long does it take that tomato tree to grow from a sapling into a fruit baring bush?

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmonths happened in the last 3 minutes of the show.

but I said 2 to 8 months, depending on how you looked at it, then added another month for stasis, which turned out, thank you, to be only 17 days, but Tuvok would have taken over as Captain before they went into stasis depending on how bad what was wrong with them.

Unless the federation was engineering super seeds...

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/l...540432087.html

It takes 75 to 90 days for a tomato plant to fully mature.

too sick to work + 17 day stasis + almost the entire entire episode + 3 months to grow tomatoes = How long Tom was a Lt Commander.
But they could have been ALIEN Tomatoes from OUTER SPACE and grew in 2 days!

Anyhow, technically we are in agreement, since I say 3-4 months and you say anywhere between 2-8 months, as long as its on the lower end of the spectrum.

As for Tom Paris not being seasoned, I chalk that up to one of the many things the Memory Alpha article talks about not showing a sufficient passage of time. Then again, maybe its because Tom was kicked out of Starfleet to begin with, only to be drafted back into service, so his command style is a lot more looser than the typical Starfleet officer?
I think Tom would step up if he got called to be XO. I think he would take it on and be a good choice
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Old August 28 2013, 08:04 PM   #174
teya
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Lynx wrote: View Post
What I've heard, Beltran had a lot of discussions with the producers about what he wanted out of his character but they constantly ignored everything. After years of trying, he lost his temper and spoke out and I admire him for that.
Beltran himself said he gave 2 suggestions: get rid of the spiritual mumbojumbo and make Chakotay Christian like him and make him a boxer.

Glad they didn't go with the first and wish they hadn't gone with the second.
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Old August 28 2013, 08:06 PM   #175
teya
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Melakon wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
. . .They also loved to do the O'Brien must suffer episodes (at least once a year), so they must have felt [Colm Meaney] was upto the task as an actor.
I was actually sad to see him go when he crashed a 747 in a fireball in Die Hard 2, though he was really a minor character.
Meaney's the quintessential character actor: he makes you care about the supporting characters he plays.
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Old August 28 2013, 08:24 PM   #176
Trevacious
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

teya wrote: View Post
Meaney's the quintessential character actor: he makes you care about the supporting characters he plays.
Which makes them ideal candidates for torture, haha.
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Old August 28 2013, 08:30 PM   #177
MacLeod
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Melakon wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
. . .They also loved to do the O'Brien must suffer episodes (at least once a year), so they must have felt [Colm Meaney] was upto the task as an actor.
I was actually sad to see him go when he crashed a 747 in a fireball in Die Hard 2, though he was really a minor character.
True, he only had a few lines but sometimes that's all you need. Though perhaps he shouldn't have been so quick to critisie British Rail. (I wonder if our American cousins got that joke)
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Old August 28 2013, 09:09 PM   #178
R. Star
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Get rid of Chakotay's made up Native American tribe would've been a good idea. Not sure if the Christian bit would've been any better, but it couldn't have been any worse.
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Old August 28 2013, 09:28 PM   #179
teya
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Get rid of Chakotay's made up Native American tribe would've been a good idea. Not sure if the Christian bit would've been any better, but it couldn't have been any worse.
How about giving him a real tribe with a real religion?

Um, yeah, it could have been worse. Chakotay & Janeway debating the one true faith...
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Old August 28 2013, 09:32 PM   #180
Bad Thoughts
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Get rid of Chakotay's made up Native American tribe would've been a good idea. Not sure if the Christian bit would've been any better, but it couldn't have been any worse.
It would have made sense to make him part of the Native American Church, including the use of peyote.
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