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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old August 28 2013, 06:39 PM   #1
Noddy
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Sisko's judgment of Dukat in "Waltz"

It's been a little while since I last watched "Waltz", but I'll probably always remember Sisko's final judgment of Dukat in that episode as "TRULY EVIL." What are other peoples' opinions of this? Was Dukat really as irredeemably nasty as Sisko ultimately decided? Just curious.
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Old August 28 2013, 08:05 PM   #2
dub
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Re: Sisko's judgment of Dukat in "Waltz"

I'd say this was our first (or close to first) glimpse of Dukat's insanity. He was controlled and proud at the beginning of the series, but things started to change when he couldn't gain the respect of the Bajorans that he so desired, and then he really snapped after his daughter's death, and through the rest of the series we see him spiral into deeper and deeper madness. In some cases, evil comes in the form of madness (probably the scariest form of evil). And I believe that's true in the case of Dukat at this point in the character's development.

Some people say this was a mistake by the writers, and this turned a very complex, interesting character into a 2d "cartoon." I respect and understand that opinion. However, I see his daughter's death, his madness, then his involvement with the Pah Wraiths and the end of the series as part of this incredible character's sad and painful journey. It wasn't until I joined this board and started seeing the other opinions that I learned how much people really truly hated what they did with Dukat, Kira, Bajoran religion/politics, Benny Russell, Vic Fontaine and some of the other hated aspects of the show that I actually love. But that's okay. To each his own! I can't abide what they did with "Into Darkness," but others are head-over-heels for it. That's the beauty of Star Trek. There's truly something for everyone!
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Old August 28 2013, 08:56 PM   #3
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Re: Sisko's judgment of Dukat in "Waltz"

The episode was a good dynamic and interaction between Sisko and Dukat, but I do feel they did water down Dukat as it were. As if being an occupation overlord and intergalatic conqueror weren't proof enough, we have do dub him as "pure" evil. I guess he wasn't evil enough on his own. Frankly, I liked the fact that Dukat had many positive character traits and sometimes it was a shade of grey to which side he was on.
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Old September 26 2013, 04:54 PM   #4
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Re: Sisko's judgment of Dukat in "Waltz"

The problem was, Too many people were responding to him as if he was perpetually on the brink of redemption.

If the directors couldnt bring themselves to simply "go with that" because of their own conception of the charachter, they needed to paint him as more cut and dried evil.
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Old September 26 2013, 05:20 PM   #5
R. Star
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Re: Sisko's judgment of Dukat in "Waltz"

^
That's what made Dukat a complete character in my opinion. That he did have some redeeming qualities. During seasons 3, 4 and early 5 he was practically one of the good guys or at least on their side half the time. Sure he had his own reasons for working in alignment with them, but it stops and makes you think. Really if he toned down his ego and wasn't always out for himself, he might have been able to experience a turn around like Damar did. But removing Dukat from his ego is like trying to remove an the egg from the omelet.
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Old September 26 2013, 08:55 PM   #6
WesleysDisciple
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Re: Sisko's judgment of Dukat in "Waltz"

just Saying many otherwise good authors just ARENT capable of "just going with it"
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Old September 28 2013, 12:18 AM   #7
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Sisko's judgment of Dukat in "Waltz"

R. Star wrote: View Post
^
That's what made Dukat a complete character in my opinion. That he did have some redeeming qualities. During seasons 3, 4 and early 5 he was practically one of the good guys or at least on their side half the time.
That's the thing though. Most of Dukat's redeeming qualities were just a calculated move to increase others' opinion of him. The only good thing he did the entire series that was not designed to make other people think better of him was not murder Zial.

The only thing is, before Waltz he believed his own lie. He was convinced that he really was this wonderful person who fought to make the Occupation more bearable. He was always a narcissistic murdering sociopath, with no genuine redeeming qualities.
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Old October 11 2013, 09:19 AM   #8
MakeshiftPython
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Re: Sisko's judgment of Dukat in "Waltz"

bud wrote: View Post
I'd say this was our first (or close to first) glimpse of Dukat's insanity. He was controlled and proud at the beginning of the series, but things started to change when he couldn't gain the respect of the Bajorans that he so desired, and then he really snapped after his daughter's death, and through the rest of the series we see him spiral into deeper and deeper madness. In some cases, evil comes in the form of madness (probably the scariest form of evil). And I believe that's true in the case of Dukat at this point in the character's development.

Some people say this was a mistake by the writers, and this turned a very complex, interesting character into a 2d "cartoon." I respect and understand that opinion. However, I see his daughter's death, his madness, then his involvement with the Pah Wraiths and the end of the series as part of this incredible character's sad and painful journey. It wasn't until I joined this board and started seeing the other opinions that I learned how much people really truly hated what they did with Dukat, Kira, Bajoran religion/politics, Benny Russell, Vic Fontaine and some of the other hated aspects of the show that I actually love. But that's okay. To each his own! I can't abide what they did with "Into Darkness," but others are head-over-heels for it. That's the beauty of Star Trek. There's truly something for everyone!
Pretty much how I felt too. With Dukat, I'm not sure where else they would have gone with him after "Sacrifice of Angels". I think him becoming insane added more to him than the opposite. He was already a deluded man in the beginning, so that should at least be a warning that he isn't one to look at himself objectively. He saw everything through a "I'm doing it because I care", and when he got nothing in return and lost an empire and a daughter, through his madness began to embrace the perception Bajorans had on him. "They thought I was their enemy? They don't know what it is to be my enemy, but they will."

All in all, I think it adds to his character, in a tragic way. Or maybe it's just Marc Alaimo being so good in the role that I can totally buy into Dukat losing his mind.
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Old October 11 2013, 09:24 AM   #9
Navaros
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Re: Sisko's judgment of Dukat in "Waltz"

Noddy wrote: View Post
Was Dukat really as irredeemably nasty as Sisko ultimately decided?
No, he wasn't. But unfortunately, the writers became hellbent on forcing the message that he was down the throats of all DS9 viewers.

That is why they assassinated the integrity of Dukat's character beginning with Waltz, and continued to do so throughout the rest of the series.

As a result of that very, very bad decision, the Dukat character and a significant part of DS9 as a series became ludicrously fubared.
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Old October 11 2013, 09:29 AM   #10
R. Star
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Re: Sisko's judgment of Dukat in "Waltz"

Well one good thing came out of the Dukat goes evil nuts arc. He and Winn are the perfect couple... they deserve one another.
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Old October 11 2013, 09:47 AM   #11
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Re: Sisko's judgment of Dukat in "Waltz"

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Well one good thing came out of the Dukat goes evil nuts arc. He and Winn are the perfect couple... they deserve one another.
Oh yes, so perfect they wanted to kill each other! That was a lot of fun seeing the two hook up, just because of how twisted the whole thing was.
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Old October 11 2013, 02:01 PM   #12
DalekJim
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Re: Sisko's judgment of Dukat in "Waltz"

Waltz is a great episode, but Sisko's Dr. Loomis-esque proclamation that Dukat is evil was the beginning of the end for Dukat's character arc. A gross mistake and simplification of a once complex and fascinating character.

I've heard people defend this, but I just don't buy that being insane makes somebody more evil. If anything, it makes them less evil as their actions can be attributed to mental illness.

Dukat had a decent side, he showed it a ton of times. He also had a monstrous side. Telling us that late in the game that he was entirely a monster, was just a bare-faced lie.
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Old October 11 2013, 02:31 PM   #13
lurok
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Re: Sisko's judgment of Dukat in "Waltz"

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Well one good thing came out of the Dukat goes evil nuts arc. He and Winn are the perfect couple... they deserve one another.
Oh yes, so perfect they wanted to kill each other! That was a lot of fun seeing the two hook up, just because of how twisted the whole thing was.
Personally I found it tedious and boring as hell. Psycho Blind Date? I think I'll pass. But I acknowledge others may have found it delightful and entertaining .
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Old October 11 2013, 04:12 PM   #14
Anwar
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Re: Sisko's judgment of Dukat in "Waltz"

Dukat's not a bad guy once you get to know him.

He's worse.
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Old October 11 2013, 05:10 PM   #15
grendelsbayne
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Re: Sisko's judgment of Dukat in "Waltz"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Waltz is a great episode, but Sisko's Dr. Loomis-esque proclamation that Dukat is evil was the beginning of the end for Dukat's character arc. A gross mistake and simplification of a once complex and fascinating character.

I've heard people defend this, but I just don't buy that being insane makes somebody more evil. If anything, it makes them less evil as their actions can be attributed to mental illness.

Dukat had a decent side, he showed it a ton of times. He also had a monstrous side. Telling us that late in the game that he was entirely a monster, was just a bare-faced lie.
I don't see how the show ever really did try to make everyone believe he was nothing but evil. I find it perfectly believable for Sisko to eventually have that opinion of him, but that doesn't mean that the audience must agree with him 100%...
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