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Old August 28 2013, 10:17 AM   #121
Stoo
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Paris never struck me as experienced or grown up enough to be the captain's right-hand man. Although I guess you are short on suitable candidates.
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Old August 28 2013, 10:38 AM   #122
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

The events in Resolutions took between 2 and 8 months depending on how liberal you want to examine the information. The story actually started after Janeway and her XO had been in Stasis for a month...

Almost a year.

9 months is so almost a year.

Long enough to make a human baby.

Tom Paris was Voyager's First Officer the whole time under the tutelage of Captain Tuvok.

Question: Did Tom get bumped up to Lieutenant Commander during Resolutions?

He should have been.
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Old August 28 2013, 10:41 AM   #123
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Stoo wrote: View Post
Paris never struck me as experienced or grown up enough to be the captain's right-hand man. Although I guess you are short on suitable candidates.
You're right to a point and that sort of tension is actually in part why I feel like bumping Tuvok and Chakotay off the ship and letting Paris be the XO (especially keeping him at Full LT to earn LT Cmdr) would have been especially great.

Chakotay himself said it best when he said Paris was something of Janeway's reclamation project, well, one of three (7 of 9 was easily another and one could argue Toress was also, after a fashion).

Being a little less mature assuming the role would have given a lot of room to grow and a little room to fall.

For him to fall the way he did in the series, they had to invent an entire scenario presented in and taking affect in a single episode (in "30 Days"). If he was the defacto XO, a position he had great potential for but really wasn't QUITE ready for, that does line up with a whole bunch of "filling shoes" scenerios to give him a chance to slip and grow.

Heck, I almost hate to say it, but in doing it that way, Paris being able to lament about Tuvok and Chakotay NOT being around may have actually ultimately gave us more reasons for us to care about the characters as legacy characters then riding them to the end of the series.

Besides, I think we could have REALLY sent both Chakotay and Tuvok out in a REAL blaze of glory in a way that would have been a real tear jerker compared to the "Oh, no more Kes?...." especially in the Borg Resolution --- there were all kinds of good potential places to do it.

Besides, I look at the series as a whole think about how many more regulars we could have enriched the series with if we opened up the salary from three cast positions. We could have seen a lot more of Carey, Wildman, Vorik and we really could have and should have expanded the roster of regulars by a lot. With as small as Voyager was and the fact we weren't rotating crew EVER, I still say we should have had so many regulars that it felt like we met the whole ship.

Oooo --- its fun thinking about the what ifs

/edit

............. and Guy has a point --- as usual.
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Old August 28 2013, 01:18 PM   #124
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Lynx wrote: View Post
Jennifer Lien never bashed the writers in public when she was a cast member.

So I can't understand how they suddenly could lose their ability to write for her character in the beginning of season 4, especially since they managed to come up with good Kes stories up to the last minute of season 3 (and in Mrs. Taylor's case even after season 3). Did Jennifer cough in the wrong tune on a Friday morning or what?

As for other actors who had dared to speak the truth about lousy writing, they have kept their mouth shut for many years of frustration before they spoke out about the lousy writing so I see no reason why the writers shouldn't do their best for their characters.
we were actually talking about Beltran bashing the writers, not Lien

as far as "speaking the truth" They're all entitled to their opinion, but while they'r ON the show and receiving a paycheck for it, I think it's incredibly poor taste to bash the show

would you go on tv and say horrible things about the company you work for and expect no consequenses at work for it?

if Beltran had issues with the writing there are channels he could have gone through, like the other actors did
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Old August 28 2013, 01:22 PM   #125
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

R. Star wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post

*applause*

Exactly.

I'll also point out that the best actors make a minor character shine. The Doctor wasn't supposed to be as big a character as he was. And his scenes in the pilot weren't all that promising. However, Picardo took the ball and ran away with it. He showed the writers what a gold mine they had.

And they rose to the challenge.
The flip side to that coin, is because the writers don't give you anything to work with you can develop a dial it in approach. But if someone was dialing it in shouldn't say the director be trying to get more out of them?
Didn't Beltran once say something to the effect of he wasn't giving his best because the writing staff wouldn't give him anything to work with? It's a double bladed sword any way you cut it.
it ends up being an argument of which came first the chicken or the egg. Probably at first Beltran wasn't happy that he wasn't getting enough lines or somthing even though in the first season he had a few of his own episodes, and durring an interview he said something unpolite which pissed off the writers, who then wrote worse for him, which made him say even worse things, which made them write even worse for him and so on and so on.

and yes he did say that he even stopped reading scripts, that's why he's always looking at a pad or a console, he had his lines taped to them. Which I think as an actor even if you're not particularly happy with your character or something, that's incredibly unprofesisonal and disrespectful to the rest of the actors
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Old August 28 2013, 01:27 PM   #126
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

teya wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post

Beltran was known for signing pics at cons with "Brannon Braga is a wanker."

I'm sure that made him really popular with the brass.
Well this likely would've been after Voyager. And the sentiment may just be popular with the fans. Conventions are for the fans after all.
He was bitching, moaning & complaining publically about TPTB during the show's run. It was noted during TV Guide features, among others.

Beltran--after daring TPTB to give him a C/7 kiss in "Endgame"--sat complaining about how he had "nothing to do" on set during the filming. TV Guide referred to him as the "resident curmudgeon."

ETA: And while some fans may have enjoyed that, it really lowered my esteem for him. There's no need to make anyone's life miserable on the job. Life's simply too short for that.

And yeah, that goes for Kate and her treatment of Jeri, too...
I just think it's incredibly poor taste to be bashing the show while you're making money off of it. He can have his own feelings about the show, maybe he didn't like it, but while he was working and making money on the show he shouldn't have been trashing it

even at conventions, he was trashing it and I don't think that's fair either since they get paid a lot of money to appear at the cons. And personally if he has signed my photo with Brannon Braga is a wanker, I would have demanded another autograph, they're too expensive for that kind of nonsense
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Old August 28 2013, 01:31 PM   #127
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
The events in Resolutions took between 2 and 8 months depending on how liberal you want to examine the information. The story actually started after Janeway and her XO had been in Stasis for a month...

Almost a year.

9 months is so almost a year.

Long enough to make a human baby.

Tom Paris was Voyager's First Officer the whole time under the tutelage of Captain Tuvok.

Question: Did Tom get bumped up to Lieutenant Commander during Resolutions?

He should have been.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Reso..._%28episode%29

Not sure how you get that time, but memory alpha says the opening scene is 17 days in stasis, act 2 is 24 days after the initial 17, and the entire episode takes place over 3-4 months.

Last edited by TheSubCommander; August 28 2013 at 01:44 PM.
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Old August 28 2013, 02:12 PM   #128
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

How long does it take that tomato tree to grow from a sapling into a fruit baring bush?

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmonths happened in the last 3 minutes of the show.

but I said 2 to 8 months, depending on how you looked at it, then added another month for stasis, which turned out, thank you, to be only 17 days, but Tuvok would have taken over as Captain before they went into stasis depending on how bad what was wrong with them.

Unless the federation was engineering super seeds...

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/l...540432087.html

It takes 75 to 90 days for a tomato plant to fully mature.

too sick to work + 17 day stasis + almost the entire entire episode + 3 months to grow tomatoes = How long Tom was a Lt Commander.
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Old August 28 2013, 03:06 PM   #129
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Lighthammer wrote: View Post
---------------------------
Main Cast
---------------------------
Captain Janeway
Lt Pairs - Conn / XO
Lt Torress - Chief Engineer
Lt JG Kim - Chief Tactical Officer
The Doctor
Kes
7 of 9
---------------------------
Reoccurring Characters
---------------------------
Chell - Cook
<a bunch of others, lets open the flood gates>
---------------------------
Leave Go
---------------------------
Lt Cmdr Chakotay (Beltran)
Lt Cmdr Tuvok (Russ)
Nelix (Phillips)
Interesting idea, I always like a good "what if" scenario.

Though Paris just never struck me as XO material--at least not in S3. Get rid of Chakotay and promote Tuvok to XO and make him more of an advisor and confidant of Janeway (as he started off in S1 but was later forgotten about). I've ready the first couple of VOY relaunch books and just don't buy Kim as Security Chief, I always think he'd get beaten up more than Archer (if that was possible). I could have seen him dropped from the cast as well. The PTB could then have promoted Ayala up to fill the duties of either Ops or Security. And of course Neelix would be killed off in a horrific manner
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Old August 28 2013, 03:26 PM   #130
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post

It takes 75 to 90 days for a tomato plant to fully mature.
Depends on the variety. There's an heirloom variety of tomatoes that was bred for short growing seasons that gives you tomatoes in 55 days, even when it's too cold for tomatoes.
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Old August 28 2013, 03:39 PM   #131
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

From the source...

JANEWAY: Very nicely. We should have vine-ripened Talaxian tomatoes in a couple of months, unless this planet has the equivalent of tomato bugs. Oh, they're awful.
So no, not Federation Engineered Superseeds.
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Old August 28 2013, 04:09 PM   #132
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

KaraBear wrote: View Post
. . .he did say that he even stopped reading scripts, that's why he's always looking at a pad or a console, he had his lines taped to them. Which I think as an actor even if you're not particularly happy with your character or something, that's incredibly unprofesisonal and disrespectful to the rest of the actors
Maybe he's not a quick study. When I did plays, it would usually take a month for me to get the script out of my hand, so I could never do a new show every week.

Or maybe he was taking a cue from Marlon Brando, who was notorious for not memorizing his lines. He'd leave index cards hidden all around a set with his lines on them, believing that allowed a fresher delivery than memorization.
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Old August 28 2013, 04:16 PM   #133
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Melakon wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
. . .he did say that he even stopped reading scripts, that's why he's always looking at a pad or a console, he had his lines taped to them. Which I think as an actor even if you're not particularly happy with your character or something, that's incredibly unprofesisonal and disrespectful to the rest of the actors
Maybe he's not a quick study. When I did plays, it would usually take a month for me to get the script out of my hand, so I could never do a new show every week.

Or maybe he was taking a cue from Marlon Brando, who was notorious for not memorizing his lines. He'd leave index cards hidden all around a set with his lines on them, believing that allowed a fresher delivery than memorization.
I don't think that was the case with him, he specifically said he didn't give a damn and stopped reading the scripts

and in all fairness, if he can't learn lines then perhaps television, where they learn a new script every week isn't right for him
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Old August 28 2013, 04:59 PM   #134
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
From the source...

JANEWAY: Very nicely. We should have vine-ripened Talaxian tomatoes in a couple of months, unless this planet has the equivalent of tomato bugs. Oh, they're awful.
So no, not Federation Engineered Superseeds.
A couple of months (60 days) would be the same timeframe as subarctic tomatoes.

Which, BTW, are naturally-bred heirlooms, not genetically engineered.
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Old August 28 2013, 05:02 PM   #135
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

KaraBear wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
Jennifer Lien never bashed the writers in public when she was a cast member.

So I can't understand how they suddenly could lose their ability to write for her character in the beginning of season 4, especially since they managed to come up with good Kes stories up to the last minute of season 3 (and in Mrs. Taylor's case even after season 3). Did Jennifer cough in the wrong tune on a Friday morning or what?

As for other actors who had dared to speak the truth about lousy writing, they have kept their mouth shut for many years of frustration before they spoke out about the lousy writing so I see no reason why the writers shouldn't do their best for their characters.
we were actually talking about Beltran bashing the writers, not Lien

as far as "speaking the truth" They're all entitled to their opinion, but while they'r ON the show and receiving a paycheck for it, I think it's incredibly poor taste to bash the show

would you go on tv and say horrible things about the company you work for and expect no consequenses at work for it?

if Beltran had issues with the writing there are channels he could have gone through, like the other actors did
Ah, but Lien must have coughed in the wrong tune on a Friday morning, otherwise the sensitive writers wouldn't have lost their abilities or their interest so quickly when it comes to writing for the character Kes.

As for Beltran, I admire him for having the guts to stand up and tell the truth about the sloppy writing.

For years, he had seen and experienced how his character was shoved more and more in the background and how his suggestions for the character were totally ignored. Finally he lost his temper, something that most of us would do.

So what did he have to lose? Nothing! It wouldn't have changed anything to continue to bow for the masters. They had already decided to place Seven and The Doctor at Janeway's side as the main characters and the rest as moving images in the background (except for the one they've already fired).

Besides that, lousy employers and lousy companies needs a smack on the head in public. Maybe they will learn to treat their employees better after that.
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