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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 26 2013, 11:51 PM   #31
jpv2000
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Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

DonIago wrote: View Post
With Riker how would we know if they both only had half a consciousness?
Now that was just plain mean.
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Old August 27 2013, 12:40 AM   #32
Nine of Four
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Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

Timo wrote: View Post
In that story, he supposedly needed to be rebonded. Not because one half was "good" (that is, wussy and indecisive) and one was "evil" (that is, impulsive and selfish), and not because these faults seemed to be deepening with time, but because the splitting was having consequences on the physique of both the duplicates, meaning both would die soon.

In "Second Chances", the two Rikers were neither mentally nor physically deteriorating, and if where were any changes in mental or physical capacity originally, those were too slight to be observed.
I said similar. But you make a good philosophical point. The were not "good and evil", as I put it, they just had tendencies leaning in that direction.

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Old August 28 2013, 07:04 AM   #33
Lance
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Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

I always thought the 'message' of Second Chances was a bit skewed. Ultimately Tom Riker is a younger Will Riker brought forward in time. He's the ambitious young career man who flirts with Deanna Troi but takes the first opportunity to start climbing that career ladder again. The episode starts out by trying to make us buy that maybe this 'younger' Riker has learnt lessons that Commander Riker never did, that his isolation on the planet and his career having stalled (as opposed to Will's apparently meteoric rise from baby-faced Ensign on the Pegasus through to first officer of the flagship in the space of only about six years according to the Okuda chronolgy) has taught Tom to appreciate what he didn't get a chance to do. But then it drops the bomb that, hey, under the surface he's still Will Riker, and he's more than happy to dick around with Deanna's feelings again (although at least he's got the balls to actually rock up and say goodbye to her this time around). The ultimate message seems to be, hey, Riker is still Riker no matter what. Which makes the episode a little pointless IMO.

Yes, Tom adopts a new name and ultimately takes a very different turn of character when he signs up with the Maquis in DS9. But in terms of Second Chances alone, there is just something a little off about the way it feeds us one message, about 'the road not taken'... and then does the complete antithesis of that message in practice.
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Old August 28 2013, 07:41 AM   #34
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Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

I always wondered why Tom didn't get promoted to Lieutenant Commander. That same episode said he was promoted for his bravery in that evacuation that created the double. So Tom did that every bit as much as Will.
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Old August 28 2013, 01:13 PM   #35
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Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

R. Star wrote: View Post
I always wondered why Tom didn't get promoted to Lieutenant Commander. That same episode said he was promoted for his bravery in that evacuation that created the double. So Tom did that every bit as much as Will.
I would think that Tom Riker's questionable grooming choices would disqualify him, but more broadly, a promotion in rank is not in itself a reward for courage (or any other display), but an assignment of new duties and responsibilities. Displays of courage figure would figure into a promotion, but presumably Riker would need to demonstrate that he can perform at a higher level, which might not be as easy after years in isolation.
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Old August 28 2013, 02:09 PM   #36
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Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

Plus everybody would be calling them both "Commander Riker", and that would just be confusing.
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Old August 28 2013, 08:37 PM   #37
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Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

It's also possible that the original Riker's career skyrocketed mostly because Admiral Pressman was bribing him with promotions to ensure his silence. And either he wouldn't go to the same trouble with Tom Riker because the same perks wouldn't have the same effect on a man whose life and career already were completely different - or because he simply didn't have time to do anything about Tom before "The Pegasus" happened.

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Old August 28 2013, 09:22 PM   #38
R. Star
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Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
I always wondered why Tom didn't get promoted to Lieutenant Commander. That same episode said he was promoted for his bravery in that evacuation that created the double. So Tom did that every bit as much as Will.
I would think that Tom Riker's questionable grooming choices would disqualify him, but more broadly, a promotion in rank is not in itself a reward for courage (or any other display), but an assignment of new duties and responsibilities. Displays of courage figure would figure into a promotion, but presumably Riker would need to demonstrate that he can perform at a higher level, which might not be as easy after years in isolation.
Not arguing with you in regards to our miliatries... but directly from the episode.

TROI
You see... he earned a promotion very quickly.
LT. RIKER
I know. (with irony) For exceptional valor during the evacuation of the research station on Nervala Four. (off her reaction) I looked over his service record.

So it stands to reason that if Will got promoted for that "exceptional valor" that Tom also displayed, he should too. Not that he shouldn't be headed directly to the nearest Academy for some refresher courses and desk duty probably until he gets back into the loop of things. But Star Trek is flexible in things like that. And what's his grooming have to do with anything? Failure to adhere to dress code while marooned with no hope of rescue?
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Old August 28 2013, 09:41 PM   #39
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Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

A Starfleet Officer is expected to maintain discipline at all times, not merely when he expects to deal with his fellow officers!
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Old August 28 2013, 09:53 PM   #40
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Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

There's an explanation deriving from the Voyager episode "Deadlock". In that episode, a spatial anomaly splits the entire ship in two, but the two Voyagers are not *quite* in the same reality. Imagine if you will, that they were in two parallel quantum realities which split at that moment. Reality splitting happens all the time, it would seem. The odd thing there was something prevented the split from completing normally.

So let's say the same thing happened with Riker. It was a dangerous beaming; in one quantum reality it succeeded, and in another he was reflected back to the planet. In all likelihood he was disintegrated in a third, but that doesn't matter here. What if the anomaly wasn't a transporter split at all, but simply a transit between quantum realities by the reflected transporter beam so it ended up in the wrong one?
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Old August 28 2013, 09:57 PM   #41
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Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

Might well be, as the explanation we get in the episode is something our heroes cooked up on the spot, based on very little available evidence. Perhaps only the next cycle at Nervala IV, eight years later, would allow Starfleet to properly test the theory and discover that it didn't hold water after all?

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Old August 29 2013, 01:00 AM   #42
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Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

Timo wrote: View Post
It's also possible that the original Riker's career skyrocketed mostly because Admiral Pressman was bribing him with promotions to ensure his silence. And either he wouldn't go to the same trouble with Tom Riker because the same perks wouldn't have the same effect on a man whose life and career already were completely different - or because he simply didn't have time to do anything about Tom before "The Pegasus" happened.
My take has always been that Riker's meteoric rise in rank was a series of lucky coincidences, as well as Riker being somebody who puts himself 'out there'. The Pegasus incident seen him, as literally a fresh graduate from the academy, take a critical role in protecting his captain when the majority of the ship's crew mutinied. Whatever the moral implications of the incident, and I don't doubt Riker stewed over them for decades afterwards, once they got back to Earth his standing up for Pressman and his keeping Pegasus a secret, he probably found a good word going in for him, hence his first promotion. Then the Nervala IV incident happens and he gets another commendation, resulting in his making Lt. Commander. If you look at the timeline, including the events of "Best of Both Worlds" where he does make Captain, then Riker goes from Ensign to Captain in the space of about nine years. He was probably seen as Starfleet's golden boy. I don't doubt that his decision to stay aboard Enterprise as her XO was seen as something of a surprise by the brass back at Starfleet command.
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Old August 31 2013, 03:20 AM   #43
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Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

R. Star wrote: View Post
But apparently it isn't murder if you kill your own clone, as Riker did in Up the Long Ladder, so at least there's a contractual loophole to get out that inconvenient implication.
I'd say it would depend on the context of the killing. The Riker clone was being formed from genetic material which was stolen from Riker, after he denied its use (as was his right to do). His rights were violated in the process, although the theft was done out of desperation.
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Old August 31 2013, 04:02 PM   #44
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Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

Lance wrote: View Post
I don't doubt that his decision to stay aboard Enterprise as her XO was seen as something of a surprise by the brass back at Starfleet command.
It was a let down for me as well.

I always wanted Riker to be Captain, finally got my wish.

Worf agreed with me as he requested to transfer to Riker's new ship if he took the promotion, as I recall.

Even if it had meant his leaving the series, I knew someone would immediately start writing novels of Riker's adventures, as they now do.
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Old August 31 2013, 05:00 PM   #45
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Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

Kinda makes you consider property issues too. I know Will's "gift" of his own trombone to Tom was meant to be a peace offering... but shouldn't he have legal claim to everything else too? Almost insulting to be given one of your own things as a "gift" back to you by a fellow keeping the rest as if he's completely entitled to them all. Like I took your wallet but here's your license back. I don't need it.
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