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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old August 27 2013, 09:42 PM   #316
Nine of Four
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I just want to say I'm glad the TOS forum isn't filled up with annoying stickys, like TNG is....
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Old August 28 2013, 12:41 AM   #317
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

That's what happen when you use replicators too much, it's bad for the environment.

(I had a pitch idea like that in 1990, because I SO wanted the 24th century to go back to having to carry what they need instead of having magic box tech, but couldn't come up with the requisite personal angle.)
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Old August 28 2013, 01:06 AM   #318
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but the startrekhistory site appears to be guilty itself of using something without giving proper credit.

In their section on deleted scenes, under "City on the Edge of Forever," the site presents an unused, never-aired music cue by Fred Steiner. They must have gotten it from La La Land's complete box set of Star Trek music.

The La La Land CD producers jumped through incredible hoops to get all the many stakeholders involved to agree to the project. Then LLL worked for like a year, going through tape reels and studio paperwork to meticulously identify and document each bit of music. And they had to make digital transfers of all the tape reels and perform restoration work on the resulting audio files.

Startrekhistory presents the "City" cue as if it was the site's own discovery. I don't see any credit or thanks given to La La Land Records or the individual producers.
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Old August 28 2013, 01:21 AM   #319
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but the startrekhistory site appears to be guilty itself of using something without giving proper credit.

In their section on deleted scenes, under "City on the Edge of Forever," the site presents an unused, never-aired music cue by Fred Steiner. They must have gotten it from La La Land's complete box set of Star Trek music.

The La La Land CD producers jumped through incredible hoops to get all the many stakeholders involved to agree to the project. Then LLL worked for like a year, going through tape reels and studio paperwork to meticulously identify and document each bit of music. And they had to make digital transfers of all the tape reels and perform restoration work on the resulting audio files.

Startrekhistory presents the "City" cue as if it was the site's own discovery. I don't see any credit or thanks given to La La Land Records or the individual producers.
Zing! LOL!
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Old August 28 2013, 01:28 AM   #320
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post

In their section on deleted scenes, under "City on the Edge of Forever," the site presents an unused, never-aired music cue by Fred Steiner. They must have gotten it from La La Land's complete box set of Star Trek music.
Are you sure that's where they got it? It could be true, but they could have also acquired it by other means.
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Old August 28 2013, 01:45 AM   #321
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

BillJ wrote: View Post
Are you sure that's where they got it? It could be true, but they could have also acquired it by other means.
That strikes me as improbable. As I understand it, the reels of audiotape were in Neil Norman's possession for about 25 years, and he jealously guarded them. Getting him to agree to any kind of release was one of the biggest challenges that LLL had to deal with.

The public got access to the previously unreleased music via the LLL CD set. This is not like workprint film trims that were mailed all over the country in the 1970s.
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Old August 28 2013, 02:43 AM   #322
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I know that page startrekhistory.com has been around for a while. In going to the Wayback Machine Internet Archive, the current version of the page seems to have been posted on line since October 10, 2011. If you go back to September 25, 2011 (which is the last time before October 10, 2011, that that particular "City on the Edge of Forever" page was archived), you'll see that the page doesn't have those sound clips. The sound clips do show up starting October 10, 2011. That is of course, a year before the LaLaLand set was released.

For what it's worth, Star Trek New Voyages has had the entire music collection from TOS for years. (It's not in flawless condition like the new LLL set is, but we've had it all for years--without dialogue and sound effects. If you check out our episodes, you'll hear the use of all kinds of musical cues that had not been publically available (even on all the various CDs that have been released over the years). Folks have been begging us for years: "Where did you get the fight music from 'Spock's Brain,' and how can I get it from you?"

If we've had all this not-publically-available music for years, I suspect that startrekhistory just got it from the same source.

Archived page is here:

http://web.archive.org/web/201110102...y.com/DS6.html


ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Are you sure that's where they got it? It could be true, but they could have also acquired it by other means.
That strikes me as improbable. As I understand it, the reels of audiotape were in Neil Norman's possession for about 25 years, and he jealously guarded them. Getting him to agree to any kind of release was one of the biggest challenges that LLL had to deal with.

The public got access to the previously unreleased music via the LLL CD set. This is not like workprint film trims that were mailed all over the country in the 1970s.
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Old August 28 2013, 02:45 AM   #323
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but the startrekhistory site appears to be guilty itself of using something without giving proper credit.

In their section on deleted scenes, under "City on the Edge of Forever," the site presents an unused, never-aired music cue by Fred Steiner. They must have gotten it from La La Land's complete box set of Star Trek music.

The La La Land CD producers jumped through incredible hoops to get all the many stakeholders involved to agree to the project. Then LLL worked for like a year, going through tape reels and studio paperwork to meticulously identify and document each bit of music. And they had to make digital transfers of all the tape reels and perform restoration work on the resulting audio files.

Startrekhistory presents the "City" cue as if it was the site's own discovery. I don't see any credit or thanks given to La La Land Records or the individual producers.
Now that's funny!
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Old August 28 2013, 02:53 AM   #324
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
If we've had all this not-publically-available music for years, I suspect that startrekhistory just got it from the same source.
Whatever the source, the point is they boot-legged it. And now they're up in arms because a book ran some photos?

Startrekhistory and its partisans want to have it both ways.
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Old August 28 2013, 02:57 AM   #325
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
If we've had all this not-publically-available music for years, I suspect that startrekhistory just got it from the same source.
Whatever the source, the point is they boot-legged it. And now they're up in arms because a book ran some photos?

Startrekhistory and its partisans want to have it both ways.
You're making a claim without any real evidence to back it up.
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Old August 28 2013, 03:11 AM   #326
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

BillJ wrote: View Post
You're making a claim without any real evidence to back it up.
No, I'm stating facts. If startrekhistory can use materials without giving credit or showing established rights, then what's all the fuss about with These are the Voyages-- a book that gave credit in its bibliography?
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Old August 28 2013, 03:18 AM   #327
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Well, if true, I'm sure startrekhistory is more than willing to properly place credit where credit is due. I think that much of the metadata details regarding this clip (composer, musicians, recording dates, etc.) wasn't known or available to them even if the clip itself was. They may have just forgotten to double back and update their web page after the information became known when the LLL set was released. I see startrekhistory as more than willing to give credit where credit is due if and when a faux pas is discovered. They seem disinclined to simply dig in their heels and stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the work of others. (It also occurs to me, that the source that Star Trek New Voyages has for our TOS music has always wanted to remain anonymous/unrevealed for a variety of reasons. Such may be the case with startrekhistory's source.)

Another subtle point is that I think people might be a bit more forgiving about a slip-up in assigning proper credit if these clips are being made available to the public on their website free of charge. But if stuff like this were being released to make a buck (like the TATV book), I can see people being less sympathetic.


ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
If we've had all this not-publically-available music for years, I suspect that startrekhistory just got it from the same source.
Whatever the source, the point is they boot-legged it. And now they're up in arms because a book ran some photos?

Startrekhistory and its partisans want to have it both ways.
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Old August 28 2013, 03:18 AM   #328
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
You're making a claim without any real evidence to back it up.
No, I'm stating facts. If startrekhistory can use materials without giving credit or showing established rights, then what's all the fuss about with These are the Voyages-- a book that gave credit in its bibliography?
There's a Hell of a difference in a non-profit fan site that puts up a music clip and a for-profit endeavor that is pilfering work of others to pad out their book.
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Old August 28 2013, 03:24 AM   #329
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

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Well, if true, I'm sure startrekhistory is more than willing to properly place credit where credit is due.
I'm sure they're great guys; I love startrekhistory. We're all friends here. But it's one thing to update a web page for some little mistake. A few keystrokes and you can do it for free.

It's something else when you've spent a year of your life breaking your back to write a book, put your personal resources into it, and it has gone to print, and now angry partisans coming out of nowhere want the book to disappear over a slight omission like this.
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Old August 28 2013, 03:27 AM   #330
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Well, if true, I'm sure startrekhistory is more than willing to properly place credit where credit is due.
I'm sure they're great guys; I love startrekhistory. We're all friends here. But it's one thing to update a web page for some little mistake. A few keystrokes and you can do it for free.

It's something else when you've spent a year of your life breaking your back to write a book, put your personal resources into it, and it has gone to print, and now angry partisans coming out of nowhere want the book to disappear over a slight omission like this.
I don't want it to disappear, I want it fixed. Which shouldn't be too much of an issue since its a print-on-demand book.

They shot themselves in the foot by sending someone in here to do a legal tap dance instead of simply fixing the issue.
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