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Old August 27 2013, 09:42 PM   #106
MacLeod
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

teya wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
but on the other hand if you're a writer, will you be giving your best stuff to someone who goes out and publicly bashes you?
*applause*

Exactly.

I'll also point out that the best actors make a minor character shine. The Doctor wasn't supposed to be as big a character as he was. And his scenes in the pilot weren't all that promising. However, Picardo took the ball and ran away with it. He showed the writers what a gold mine they had.

And they rose to the challenge.
The flip side to that coin, is because the writers don't give you anything to work with you can develop a dial it in approach. But if someone was dialing it in shouldn't say the director be trying to get more out of them?
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Old August 27 2013, 09:55 PM   #107
R. Star
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
but on the other hand if you're a writer, will you be giving your best stuff to someone who goes out and publicly bashes you?
*applause*

Exactly.

I'll also point out that the best actors make a minor character shine. The Doctor wasn't supposed to be as big a character as he was. And his scenes in the pilot weren't all that promising. However, Picardo took the ball and ran away with it. He showed the writers what a gold mine they had.

And they rose to the challenge.
The flip side to that coin, is because the writers don't give you anything to work with you can develop a dial it in approach. But if someone was dialing it in shouldn't say the director be trying to get more out of them?
Didn't Beltran once say something to the effect of he wasn't giving his best because the writing staff wouldn't give him anything to work with? It's a double bladed sword any way you cut it.
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Old August 27 2013, 09:56 PM   #108
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Jennifer Lien never bashed the writers in public when she was a cast member.

So I can't understand how they suddenly could lose their ability to write for her character in the beginning of season 4, especially since they managed to come up with good Kes stories up to the last minute of season 3 (and in Mrs. Taylor's case even after season 3). Did Jennifer cough in the wrong tune on a Friday morning or what?

As for other actors who had dared to speak the truth about lousy writing, they have kept their mouth shut for many years of frustration before they spoke out about the lousy writing so I see no reason why the writers shouldn't do their best for their characters.
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Old August 27 2013, 09:59 PM   #109
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Jennifer Lien delivered one of my favourite lines in Trek in "Caretaker", when they are on Ocampa in the colony looking for Torres and Kim. She gets into an argument with Toscat (your typical numpty-bureaucrat) and tells him that, "I saw the sunlight."

A very simple little line, but she just did it in such a way that I really felt for her, as it showed her defiance of convention and awe at the simple wonders of the world. Even years after I last saw the episode that little bit sticks with me. There isn't much that came out of Seven's mouth that has done that.
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Old August 27 2013, 10:04 PM   #110
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Jennifer Lien delivered one of my favourite lines in Trek in "Caretaker", when they are on Ocampa in the colony looking for Torres and Kim. She gets into an argument with Toscat (your typical numpty-bureaucrat) and tells him that, "I saw the sunlight."

A very simple little line, but she just did it in such a way that I really felt for her, as it showed her defiance of convention and awe at the simple wonders of the world. Even years after I last saw the episode that little bit sticks with me. There isn't much that came out of Seven's mouth that has done that.
I agree. I became a fan of the character during her debate with Toscat there and then.
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Old August 27 2013, 10:24 PM   #111
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Lynx wrote: View Post
. . .As for other actors who had dared to speak the truth about lousy writing, they have kept their mouth shut for many years of frustration before they spoke out about the lousy writing so I see no reason why the writers shouldn't do their best for their characters.
Writers seem to be notorious for punishing mouthy actors. Adam West related an incident in his book Back to the Batcave. Burt Ward was complaining to one of the writers that he wasn't getting enough to do as Robin. So that writer's next script had Robin in nearly every scene, lots of pnysical stunts, dialogue, etc. Ward apologized.
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Old August 27 2013, 10:29 PM   #112
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Lynx wrote: View Post
So I can't understand how they suddenly could lose their ability to write for her character in the beginning of season 4, especially since they managed to come up with good Kes stories up to the last minute of season 3 (and in Mrs. Taylor's case even after season 3). Did Jennifer cough in the wrong tune on a Friday morning or what?
It's the nature of the creative process. You'll work with something, and you think it's great, and then after awhile you find it isn't working out as you'd hoped. Sometimes you can fix it. Sometimes it's simply beyond hope. Sometimes you've just taken one thing as far as you can & it's time to let it go.

That's part of creativity: sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
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Old August 27 2013, 10:30 PM   #113
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Melakon wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
. . .As for other actors who had dared to speak the truth about lousy writing, they have kept their mouth shut for many years of frustration before they spoke out about the lousy writing so I see no reason why the writers shouldn't do their best for their characters.
Writers seem to be notorious for punishing mouthy actors. Adam West related an incident in his book Back to the Batcave. Burt Ward was complaining to one of the writers that he wasn't getting enough to do as Robin. So that writer's next script had Robin in nearly every scene, lots of pnysical stunts, dialogue, etc. Ward apologized.
Beltran was known for signing pics at cons with "Brannon Braga is a wanker."

I'm sure that made him really popular with the brass.
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Old August 27 2013, 10:37 PM   #114
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

teya wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
. . .As for other actors who had dared to speak the truth about lousy writing, they have kept their mouth shut for many years of frustration before they spoke out about the lousy writing so I see no reason why the writers shouldn't do their best for their characters.
Writers seem to be notorious for punishing mouthy actors. Adam West related an incident in his book Back to the Batcave. Burt Ward was complaining to one of the writers that he wasn't getting enough to do as Robin. So that writer's next script had Robin in nearly every scene, lots of pnysical stunts, dialogue, etc. Ward apologized.
Beltran was known for signing pics at cons with "Brannon Braga is a wanker."

I'm sure that made him really popular with the brass.
Well this likely would've been after Voyager. And the sentiment may just be popular with the fans. Conventions are for the fans after all.
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Old August 27 2013, 10:51 PM   #115
teya
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

R. Star wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post

Writers seem to be notorious for punishing mouthy actors. Adam West related an incident in his book Back to the Batcave. Burt Ward was complaining to one of the writers that he wasn't getting enough to do as Robin. So that writer's next script had Robin in nearly every scene, lots of pnysical stunts, dialogue, etc. Ward apologized.
Beltran was known for signing pics at cons with "Brannon Braga is a wanker."

I'm sure that made him really popular with the brass.
Well this likely would've been after Voyager. And the sentiment may just be popular with the fans. Conventions are for the fans after all.
He was bitching, moaning & complaining publically about TPTB during the show's run. It was noted during TV Guide features, among others.

Beltran--after daring TPTB to give him a C/7 kiss in "Endgame"--sat complaining about how he had "nothing to do" on set during the filming. TV Guide referred to him as the "resident curmudgeon."

ETA: And while some fans may have enjoyed that, it really lowered my esteem for him. There's no need to make anyone's life miserable on the job. Life's simply too short for that.

And yeah, that goes for Kate and her treatment of Jeri, too...
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Old August 27 2013, 10:52 PM   #116
Guy Gardener
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Kes had her second birthday party in season two's Twisted, which was a held over season one episode that aired in 2372, not 2371. She wore old lady make up in before and After, and Fury, and she died of old age in 2379, but the crew got home in 2378 in the version of Endgame we're told is real.

If Twisted had aired in season one like it had been slated to, Kes would have died in the final if Lien hadn't been fired.
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Old August 27 2013, 11:25 PM   #117
dub
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

teya wrote: View Post
The Doctor wasn't supposed to be as big a character as he was. And his scenes in the pilot weren't all that promising. However, Picardo took the ball and ran away with it. He showed the writers what a gold mine they had.
I loved the Doctor before the show started actually. This behind the scenes show came on prior to the pilot episode I think. Anybody else remember this? I remember I taped it and watched it over and over because I thought it was so cool. And Robert Picardo was entertaining even though he had some very dry lines to deliver.



Though my excitement didn't last, this special made me very excited about the show in the beginning.

Another interesting thing to note...I wonder if the opening for this special somehow inspired the open for Enterprise?
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Old August 28 2013, 01:46 AM   #118
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

dub wrote: View Post
I loved the Doctor before the show started actually. This behind the scenes show came on prior to the pilot episode I think. Anybody else remember this? I remember I taped it and watched it over and over because I thought it was so cool. And Robert Picardo was entertaining even though he had some very dry lines to deliver.
Wow! I totally remember that. Like you, I remember watching that and totally falling in love with Doc. I was so excited it was "the dude from Explorers!"

I even remember making a silly pact with myself that I would watch every episode first-airing. And I did! Incidentally, it's the only ST show I can say that about since I missed the first 8 or 9 episodes of ENT season 3 when they first aired.

Thanks for sharing the link. Ima gonna havta watch!
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Old August 28 2013, 02:16 AM   #119
Guy Gardener
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

The Doctor was in love with Kes, and that's the only reason he wouldn't murder Tuvix.

Keeping Neelix out of the picture.
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Old August 28 2013, 05:10 AM   #120
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

The sad fact is Chaktoay is ever so much more interesting of a character once he becomes captain of Voyager in Path to 2409.

Past Season 3, Tuvok and Chaktoay just felt like dead weight. Heck, once again, Chaktoay only got really interesting for some short bursts when we saw him really play Anthropologist or when they really continued to build the dynamic between him and Paris (IE Dark Frontier).

Once again, one of the things that made the series a lot more fun during the novel restart was when Kim became the Cheif Tactical Officer. It made me fell like if he had that role during the main series, he would have felt 200% more useful and once again, I keep feeling bad for hating on Tuvok, but he felt like dead weight most of the series. That would have been a fun change up.

Honestly, looking at things with a critical eye, I think this is how I would have laid things out after season 3:

---------------------------
Main Cast
---------------------------
Captain Janeway
Lt Pairs - Conn / XO
Lt Torress - Chief Engineer
Lt JG Kim - Chief Tactical Officer
The Doctor
Kes
7 of 9
---------------------------
Reoccurring Characters
---------------------------
Chell - Cook
<a bunch of others, lets open the flood gates>
---------------------------
Leave Go
---------------------------
Lt Cmdr Chakotay (Beltran)
Lt Cmdr Tuvok (Russ)
Nelix (Phillips)

Honestly, through and through, I think this would have made for a lot more compelling stories.

I can think of no less then 5 episodes it would have spared us from >.>
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