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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 27 2013, 08:19 AM   #811
SJSharksfan39
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Watched The Host tonight and the trill are so different in TNG than they were in DS9. I wonder if there is a logical in universe explanation to the discrepancies, like using the transporter would kill the symbiant. As for the end, everyone seems to always have a problem with the ending, but I'm not sure if TNG would have been capable of covering a subject like that. They tried in the next season but it seemed to just take the easy way out. Unfortunately, the concept of LGBT was really taboo back then, much moreso than it is today.

I do feel like Crusher's reaction was pretty much normal from the episode though. We get a character who loses the person she loves, that person comes back as a fellow officer, and then that same person comes back again as a female. That's a lot to take in, even if the plot logistics leaves a lot of questions, such as why didn't Crusher know who Odan was when he got on board.
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Old August 27 2013, 03:19 PM   #812
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
Watched The Host tonight and the trill are so different in TNG than they were in DS9. I wonder if there is a logical in universe explanation to the discrepancies, like using the transporter would kill the symbiant. As for the end, everyone seems to always have a problem with the ending, but I'm not sure if TNG would have been capable of covering a subject like that. They tried in the next season but it seemed to just take the easy way out. Unfortunately, the concept of LGBT was really taboo back then, much moreso than it is today.

I do feel like Crusher's reaction was pretty much normal from the episode though. We get a character who loses the person she loves, that person comes back as a fellow officer, and then that same person comes back again as a female. That's a lot to take in, even if the plot logistics leaves a lot of questions, such as why didn't Crusher know who Odan was when he got on board.
It's "possible" that the Trill are composed of two societies (and "races" that look different) that treat the host/symbiont concept different.
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Old August 27 2013, 05:43 PM   #813
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

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Roddenberry was in charge though so he should get the credit IMO because if it failed and was DOA you can bet he would've got the blame. He came up with the concept and the characters etc I think?
Nope, not by himself he didn't.
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I'm near the end of season four and damn, it's pretty. But so much of it is just so "sterile". So much of the dialogue is stilted and dull, many of the supposed emotional moments just feel forced. There's just no other way to explain it.

With each passing season I become less emotionally invested in the characters.
Interesting, but I dont see that at all. It's the best STNG season, only two weak ones in the entire bunch.
I agree with Bill. As bad as many of the early season episodes are, there was a sense of wonder about the TNG universe, a feeling of actually being in the future, which all but disappears by the fourth season.
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Old August 27 2013, 06:42 PM   #814
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

^The music had a lot to do with that. By the fourth season, most of the musical scores had lost their bite. Melodies were gone, and much of it felt like filler. It made a lot of episodes feel plain.
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Old August 27 2013, 07:01 PM   #815
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

jimbotron wrote: View Post
^The music had a lot to do with that. By the fourth season, most of the musical scores had lost their bite. Melodies were gone, and much of it felt like filler. It made a lot of episodes feel plain.
That is definitely part of the issue.
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Old August 27 2013, 07:11 PM   #816
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

jimbotron wrote: View Post
^The music had a lot to do with that. By the fourth season, most of the musical scores had lost their bite. Melodies were gone, and much of it felt like filler. It made a lot of episodes feel plain.
That was a big part of it, but it wasn't just that. Everything was familiar. There wasn't the sense of being out in uncharted space. It was just Klingon stories, Romulan stories, and going from one starbase to the next. It got kinda dull. The dull music didn't help, of course.
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Old August 28 2013, 05:37 AM   #817
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Season 4 might have been the year of Family, but it was also the year of awesome development of the relations between the Federation, Klingons, and the Romulans. It expanded the Star Trek universe to where DS9 could take it and run with it. Hell, everyone calls Season 4 the year of the family, yet those were only in the first few episodes of the season. Season 4 was much more about expanding the good stuff TNG laid in the previous 3 seasons than it was about Family.

I just saw "The Mind's Eye" and I had forgotten how awesome this episode was. The Grim music, taking one of the more innocent regular characters, laying the groundwork to Redemption, it's like watching this episode, TNG tried to do arc storytelling in Season 4 and somewhat succeeded. I think the worst missed opportunity this series had going for it was it never followed up the brainwashing. After Redemption II, it seemed to drop the Klingon/Romulan arc almost entirely, yet just imagine if those threads were weaved throughout the series and we did get a Brainwashing follow up. With that, and more contact with the Cardassians, this series could have been even better than it was.
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Old August 28 2013, 08:34 PM   #818
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
Season 4 might have been the year of Family, but it was also the year of awesome development of the relations between the Federation, Klingons, and the Romulans. It expanded the Star Trek universe to where DS9 could take it and run with it. Hell, everyone calls Season 4 the year of the family, yet those were only in the first few episodes of the season. Season 4 was much more about expanding the good stuff TNG laid in the previous 3 seasons than it was about Family.

I just saw "The Mind's Eye" and I had forgotten how awesome this episode was. The Grim music, taking one of the more innocent regular characters, laying the groundwork to Redemption, it's like watching this episode, TNG tried to do arc storytelling in Season 4 and somewhat succeeded. I think the worst missed opportunity this series had going for it was it never followed up the brainwashing. After Redemption II, it seemed to drop the Klingon/Romulan arc almost entirely, yet just imagine if those threads were weaved throughout the series and we did get a Brainwashing follow up. With that, and more contact with the Cardassians, this series could have been even better than it was.

Since watching the season again I've didn't realise how big the worf Klingon and romulan story arc was . Some really good stuff never noticed it before never noticed it when I watched it 1st time on BBC 2 and Worf was my favourite character.

I can always remember when Worf leaves the enterprise and thought they would write him out . I can always remember loads of rumours that he would be killed off in season 5 !!! So glad he didn't. Always thought his character had some good stories and had a good impact to DS9.
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Old August 28 2013, 09:24 PM   #819
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

jimbotron wrote: View Post
^The music had a lot to do with that. By the fourth season, most of the musical scores had lost their bite. Melodies were gone, and much of it felt like filler. It made a lot of episodes feel plain.
Actually, the opposite is true. Season 4 features some of TNG's best scores. Ron Jones composed some of his most memorable music for episodes like BOBW2, Final Mission, Devil's Due, Night Terrors and of course The Nth Degree. Guest composer and future replacement for Jones, Jay Chattaway scored Remember Me, probably his best score ever. And even though Dennis McCarthy's scores began to sound familiar, they were still exciting in season 4. As soon as Jones was fired near the end of season 4, the music changes dramatically. But by that point, there were only 4 or 5 episodes left in the season. The sonic wallpaper sound became part of the show during season 5, not 4.
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Old August 28 2013, 09:58 PM   #820
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

I don't count Jones in my criticism. But I include season 4 in my criticism because that's when he was fired, even though we didn't feel the drop yet. He clearly had a different opinion about how scores should be done, and was fired because of it. I enjoy some of Jay Chattaway's scores. McCarthy less so.

In season 1, Ron Jones' music alone could turn a crappy episode into something watchable, such as When the Bough Breaks. Early on, I could always detect a Ron Jones episode just by the opening notes in the episode.
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Old August 30 2013, 08:56 PM   #821
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Regarding the missing original film elements from The Best of Both World part 2, having watched the episode in HD on SyFy tonight, would not it not be possible to solve the problem by either

a) reusing almost identical HD footage of Riker on the Battle Bridge, and either digitally compositing his SD lip movements when saying "we need to time prepare our people for assimilation" on to his HD face, and relaying the audio,

or

b) using digital manipulation to move HD Riker's mouth to match the script

While not a perfect solution, it appears the original film element is no more, and I would like one of the above as an alternative option on some sort of Blu-ray disc branching. To be honest, I'd not read the reviews of the S4 set, and I didn't know CBS hadn't found all the BOBW footage. I'd been looking forward to it in HD for some weeks, but I almost cried when I saw part 2 this evening. The 3 seconds of upscaled video look awful.
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Old August 30 2013, 09:19 PM   #822
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Admiral Bear wrote: View Post
Regarding the missing original film elements from The Best of Both World part 2, having watched the episode in HD on SyFy tonight, would not it not be possible to solve the problem by either

a) reusing almost identical HD footage of Riker on the Battle Bridge, and either digitally compositing his SD lip movements when saying "we need to time prepare our people for assimilation" on to his HD face, and relaying the audio,

or

b) using digital manipulation to move HD Riker's mouth to match the script

While not a perfect solution, it appears the original film element is no more, and I would like one of the above as an alternative option on some sort of Blu-ray disc branching. To be honest, I'd not read the reviews of the S4 set, and I didn't know CBS hadn't found all the BOBW footage. I'd been looking forward to it in HD for some weeks, but I almost cried when I saw part 2 this evening. The 3 seconds of upscaled video look awful.
The second technique you mention would probably not look very good. The first one is certainly possible (and I even suggested it back when the missing shot was disclosed), but in all honesty, it would be very hard to integrate the SD element precisely over his face in a different take with different head positions and have it look convincing. In the end, it's probably better that they were upfront with us and just upconverted the entire shot. It's very quick, and is no more jarring than the few upconverted seconds in "We'll Always Have Paris." The best situation is what happened in "The Drumhead" where a quick SD cutaway of the damaged warp core through a window in Engineering was substituted for missing footage. That one is very difficult to spot.

I think CBS has been very lucky so far in regard to missing footage. It's kind of amazing that we're only talking about a few seconds of footage out of several days of edited content.
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Old August 30 2013, 09:36 PM   #823
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

I think anyone with moderate video editing skills could do my first option on their home PC to most people's satisfaction. Riker doesn't move position between the two shots, so with his head staying still, compositing his SD mouth movements on to his HD face would pose no issues. We've all seen far more advanced stuff on youtube that some very skilled "amateurs" have done at home.

It's a shame that doing it didn't occur to anyone at CBS. It occurred to me straight away. It would only have taken a fully trained CBS in house monkey an hour or two to knock something up.
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Old August 30 2013, 10:16 PM   #824
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Admiral Bear wrote: View Post
I think anyone with moderate video editing skills could do my first option on their home PC to most people's satisfaction. Riker doesn't move position between the two shots, so with his head staying still, compositing his SD mouth movements on to his HD face would pose no issues. We've all seen far more advanced stuff on youtube that some very skilled "amateurs" have done at home.

It's a shame that doing it didn't occur to anyone at CBS. It occurred to me straight away. It would only have taken a fully trained CBS in house monkey an hour or two to knock something up.
I dunno, we humans are pretty good at noticing even very subtle nuances and deviations in regard to human facial movements. In fact, we have entire parts of our brain (the fusiform gyrus, the amygdala) that are devoted to face perception and interpreting emotions. I think you would need someone with more than just moderate video editing skills.

Also, just because CBS Digital didn't end up doing it doesn't mean it didn't occur to them. It may have, we don't know. And I'd just caution against stating how easy you think a visual effect may be without actually attempting it yourself. I was probably guilty of this when I first made the suggestion you are now. You can't really know until you try it. Sometimes things may seem straightforward and simple, yet when you're actually doing it you run into unforeseen issues. There's a difference between coming up with an idea and successfully executing it at a professional level.

I think CBS Digital's trained monkeys would agree with that.
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Old August 30 2013, 10:23 PM   #825
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Admiral Bear wrote: View Post
I'd been looking forward to it in HD for some weeks, but I almost cried when I saw part 2 this evening. The 3 seconds of upscaled video look awful.
3 whole seconds. How terrible for you.
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