RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,139
Posts: 5,433,812
Members: 24,934
Currently online: 531
Newest member: Emperor Khaless

TrekToday headlines

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Yelchin In New Indie Thriller
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Saldana In The Book of Life
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Cracked’s New Sci-Fi Satire
By: T'Bonz on Oct 16


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 27 2013, 06:32 PM   #31
Rusty Nova
Fleet Captain
 
Rusty Nova's Avatar
 
Location: Avon
Re: Why wasn't Worf in Code of Honor?

just the leader being black = not a problem, entire planet of black savages = problem. its the historical context that makes a kinda boring season 1 story and turns it into what it is.

and if you're thinking 'we only saw a few people there could be white people there', we only very rarely see more than a few of any given species.

i agree we should have seen more non white people in star trek, just not like this
__________________

Hello to Jason Isaacs!
Rusty Nova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 27 2013, 06:35 PM   #32
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: Why wasn't Worf in Code of Honor?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Why does having the ruler of a planet being black equal "racist?"
You'll have to point out where anyone in this thread said that.
__________________
"Beep... beep!" --Captain Pike
Hober Mallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 27 2013, 06:37 PM   #33
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Why wasn't Worf in Code of Honor?

junxon wrote: View Post
just the leader being black = not a problem, entire planet of black savages = problem. its the historical context that makes a kinda boring season 1 story and turns it into what it is.

and don't say 'we only saw a few people there could be white people there', we only ever see a few of any given species.
I'm still not exactly sure why you refer to them as 'black savages'? They seem to be a moderately advanced technological species that seems are united under one world government that has had something of a violent background.

Is it racist if I walk through a city in Nigeria or Ethiopia and don't see any white people while I'm there?

Was it racist that both Angel One and Justice had no black people in them (outside of the crew)?
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 27 2013, 06:42 PM   #34
Dr. Sevrin
Vice Admiral
 
Dr. Sevrin's Avatar
 
Location: Melakon's grave
Re: Why wasn't Worf in Code of Honor?

There's been modern day criticism of the old Buck Rogers serial as well, for using Asians as natives of the planet Saturn.

I didn't sense any intentional racism when I first saw "Code of Honor" back in its day, though Jessie Lawrence Ferguson's vocal delivery reminded me of Tim Moore's Kingfish. I thought the idea of an all black world was inventive.

Then again, I'm a white anglo, so I'm not the best to judge when it comes to these things.
__________________
Dr. Sevrin is insane.
Dr. Sevrin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 27 2013, 06:52 PM   #35
Rusty Nova
Fleet Captain
 
Rusty Nova's Avatar
 
Location: Avon
Re: Why wasn't Worf in Code of Honor?

BillJ wrote: View Post
I'm still not exactly sure why you refer to them as 'black savages'? They seem to be a moderately advanced technological species that seems are united under one world government that has had something of a violent background.

Is it racist if I walk through a city in Nigeria or Ethiopia and don't see any white people while I'm there?

Was it racist that both Angel One and Justice had no black people in them (outside of the crew)?
because it was shorter than writing 'negative charicature black people that act like savages by kidnapping white women such as might appear in something from the 1930s' which i probably should've said to be clearer.

and as for the other points you know it isn't.

on topic for the thread: worf was off getting his ridges waxed

adios.
__________________

Hello to Jason Isaacs!
Rusty Nova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 27 2013, 06:59 PM   #36
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Why wasn't Worf in Code of Honor?

junxon wrote: View Post

because it was shorter than writing 'negative charicature black people that act like savages by kidnapping white women such as might appear in something from the 1930s' which i probably should've said to be clearer.
It's a poor episode but the cries of racism aren't very well thought out.
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 27 2013, 07:20 PM   #37
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: Why wasn't Worf in Code of Honor?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Makarov wrote: View Post

I feel bad for the writer because if they had cast in any other way, it would just be any old episode.
Next time, he/she shouldn't write a shitty script!
Actually maybe the writer benefited in the end. If we weren't talking about whether or not the episode was racist we'd only be talking about how crappy the episode is.
__________________
"Beep... beep!" --Captain Pike
Hober Mallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 27 2013, 08:10 PM   #38
Maestro
Vice Admiral
 
Maestro's Avatar
 
Location: Maestro
Re: Why wasn't Worf in Code of Honor?

Worf wasn't in this episode because they were thinking of recasting his actor.
__________________
"When Christians use Jesus for hate-mongering, they ruin Jesus for the rest of us." -Me.
Maestro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 27 2013, 10:07 PM   #39
Jefferies
Captain
 
Jefferies's Avatar
 
Re: Why wasn't Worf in Code of Honor?

junxon wrote: View Post

because it was shorter than writing 'negative charicature black people that act like savages by kidnapping white women such as might appear in something from the 1930s' which i probably should've said to be clearer.

and as for the other points you know it isn't.

on topic for the thread: worf was off getting his ridges waxed

adios.
So because Denise Crosby is white her kidnapping is savagery when comitted by black men because of how your mind associates savagery with black people due to inflammatory depictions from gone by eras? What if she had been kidnapped by black women would that count as savagery? What about asians in wheelchairs? What strikes me as problematic on your part is that you are making the act of savagery dependent on the ethnicity of those who commit the act. Would the idea that Lutan and his people are savages have even entered your mind if they had been white and Yar black? It strikes me that it is you who is thinking in racist terms here.
Jefferies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2013, 02:38 AM   #40
The Overlord
Captain
 
Re: Why wasn't Worf in Code of Honor?

I think the episodes would have seemed less racist if the aliens were not dressed like tribal stereotypes.

Moving on, doesn't seem like Lutan's code of honor is just self serving BS? I am wondering if he made it up, instead of it actually being part of their culture. Lutan gets kidnap someone and the other side has to nicely ask for the kidnapped person back? I doubt Klingons would think that honorable, if someone kidnapped a member of a Klingon House, there would be bloody revenge, not niceties.
The Overlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2013, 02:50 AM   #41
WalkerBait
Trekker4747
 
WalkerBait's Avatar
 
Location: Kansas City
Re: Why wasn't Worf in Code of Honor?

Timo wrote: View Post
Pink people definitely exist - I am one, and I suppose you are as well. Pink people are world-famous for their savagery and kidnapping of women, too. And they have a history of being portrayed negatively. So why isn't "High Ground" a racist episode?

Timo Saloniemi
Please tell me where people are considered to be "pink" beyond the old "white people's skin really isn't white it's more of a pink" pedant.
__________________
Just because it's futuristic doesn't mean it's practical.
WalkerBait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2013, 03:22 AM   #42
JirinPanthosa
Commodore
 
Re: Why wasn't Worf in Code of Honor?

junxon wrote: View Post
yes but the 'black people as savages' is a stereotype which has existed. it is an offensive stereotype.
Yeah, but these were not black people. They were aliens with dark skin. The only way it's racist is if the episode attempts to make the statement that this behavior is representative of black people in general.

By that logic, it's offensive to portray white people as tax evaders.

Ensign Kim was good at math, is that racist? Is Sulu being good at fencing racist?

It's more racist to cast your roles around fear of being stereotype adjacent and make your characters into the Greendale Human than it is to actually cast your show in a way that rubs up against stereotypes.
JirinPanthosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2013, 03:32 AM   #43
WalkerBait
Trekker4747
 
WalkerBait's Avatar
 
Location: Kansas City
Re: Why wasn't Worf in Code of Honor?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
It's more racist to cast your roles around fear of being stereotype adjacent and make your characters into the Greendale Human than it is to actually cast your show in a way that rubs up against stereotypes.
So it's not racist to make a group of black people to act like savages and kidnap a white woman over tribal rites so long as your characters are aliens. Got it.

So the "Dark on one side, white on the other!" episode from TOS wasn't a commentary on race issues of the era since, hey, these guys were aliens! The episode with the androgynous race in TNG wasn't about sexual orientation issues since the aliens on display were just that, aliens!

Get real. Trek has always dealt with topical issues by putting aliens on display who're having 20th century issues (that humanity had supposedly out-grown.) When you put on display a culture made up entirely of black people who act like savages it's pretty damn hard to NOT read into it something of a hidden message. Especially when it's known that per the director's orders all of the "aliens" had to black and the production decision to not give them so much as makeup squigglies or dots to make them "more alien" looking.

They were black people concerned over tribal issues who kidnapped a white woman and mad her perform in a savage game over marital/land rights. It's pretty damn offensive.

Why wasn't Worf in the episode? As state it's most likely because Worf wasn't much of a character in the first season which had a pretty heavy cast. This episode was also very Tasha-centric so there was little room to focus on anyone but her and other notable bridge crew members. It's also likely there's a bit of "plot convenience" here as it could be seen as things in the episode unlikely would have happened the way they did HAD Worf been around as his presence would have either been redundant to Yar's or negated her completely. (He would have been better at showing off the holodeck, fighting for example which is what piqued the interest of the aliens on Yar in the first place.)
__________________
Just because it's futuristic doesn't mean it's practical.
WalkerBait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28 2013, 11:35 PM   #44
Makarov
Commander
 
Re: Why wasn't Worf in Code of Honor?

If this alien race is racist because they're all tribal, why isn't Worf a racist character when he's a warrior prone to agression?

They could have cast some white actors and darkened their skin like they do with some klingons. Then you have a racially diverse cast but you still have a light vs. dark thing. So then you need to remove the tribal aspects, or you just cannot have an entire alien race be dark skinned. I dunno.
Makarov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 29 2013, 01:42 AM   #45
JirinPanthosa
Commodore
 
Re: Why wasn't Worf in Code of Honor?

It's far more racist to say that roles should be cast around making sure no actor even remotely coincides with any stereotype than it is to cast a role in a way that's similar to a stereotype.

Believe it or not there were tribes with gender attitudes similar to that of all variety of races in Earth history.

Did Code Of Honor actually leave you with the impression that all black people were savages who kidnapped white women? If it did leave you with that impression it says more about you than the episode. The episode was about a group of aliens with gender cultures similar to thousands of years old gender cultures from all parts of Earth, the fact that they had high melanin content in their skin was incidental.

I suppose Stargate is racist for portraying Egyptians as worshipping alien parasites.
JirinPanthosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:38 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.