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Old August 27 2013, 07:46 AM   #151
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Dukhat wrote: View Post
I already answered that question. Any design process or study model building would have been done after the production told ILM what they wanted.
This may not be the case because it's all too obvious that except for the Grissom the Excelsior design studies were rejected by Nimoy/Bennett/Winter because they did not get the design studies they wanted (and that's not the kind of stuff ILM would write home about).

Either ILM thought they were doing models for a prequel (blame Nimoy/Bennett/Winter) or Nimoy/Bennett/Winter didn't like the apparent retro style ILM was aiming for (blame ILM for their lack of vision what the next gen of a Federation starship should look like).
As it is obvious from the Rodis storyboard of the revised four-nacelled Excelsior viewed from the spacedock lounge (not the Enterprise!) the warp nacelles were apparently what the ST III producers found most fault with.

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Old August 27 2013, 05:21 PM   #152
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
This may not be the case because it's all too obvious that except for the Grissom the Excelsior design studies were rejected by Nimoy/Bennett/Winter because they did not get the design studies they wanted (and that's not the kind of stuff ILM would write home about).
It looks to me more like there was a progression of designs that went from one extreme to the other (i.e. four-nacelles to two nacelles, flatter designs to designs with a neck separating the saucer and secondary hull, etc.), and Nimoy chose his favorite, not that he didn't want the other ones. Any anyway, what's the point of making five different study models that all look the same? And why would ILM care about people not knowing which study models Nimoy didn't choose?

Plus, here's something else you haven't considered: There were several study models made for what eventually became the Grissom. Unfortunately we only saw the one they chose. For all we know, the others looked completely different, and as with the Excelsior, Nimoy simply chose the one he personally liked the best.

And remember the Merchantman? Study models were made for that as well, one of which can actually be seen sitting in Spacedock (the barge/dumpster-looking thing under a ramp). It doesn't look anything like the final Merchantman design.

As it is obvious from the Rodis storyboard of the revised four-nacelled Excelsior viewed from the spacedock lounge (not the Enterprise!) the warp nacelles were apparently what the ST III producers found most fault with.
And yet those same nacelles were just fine for the final Grissom design, which despite what you believe seems to have every indication of being contemporary to the Excelsior.

Either ILM thought they were doing models for a prequel (blame Nimoy/Bennett/Winter) or Nimoy/Bennett/Winter didn't like the apparent retro style ILM was aiming for (blame ILM for their lack of vision what the next gen of a Federation starship should look like).
I see that no matter what I say or what evidence I give, you're still in denial about this whole "ILM thought they were making a prequel" thing that only you believe because it fits with your personal theory about the age of the Oberth, so there's really nothing more for me to say on this subject, so I think I'll let it drop.
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Old August 27 2013, 06:17 PM   #153
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

I think I'm allowed to wonder why Rodis and Carson started with these retro style study models of Excelsior (which look quite archaic to me) which obviously needed significant upgrades and improvements before these could qualify as late 23rd Century designs.
Unless we have a straight answer to "Why?" there can't be possibly anything wrong to speculate on the matter, IMO.

This was not pre-production work for Star Wars (where they first had to figure out what style they wanted to have to begin with) but for the third Star Trek film, and design aesthetics had already been established by the refit Enterprise and the Reliant. YMDV, obviously.

Bob
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Old August 27 2013, 09:51 PM   #154
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Regarding the nacelles - I'm thinking maybe they vetoed the look because it looked too "simple" for Excelsior, but liked them enough to slap them on the Grissom. Also, we know that the four-nacelle approach was most likely not picked for Excelsior because the Excelsior looked like a new Enterprise, as opposed to a totally different approach.
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Old August 28 2013, 12:18 AM   #155
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

I'm not sure the how and the when, but I recall that at some point the intent was to have the Excelsior be renamed the new Enterprise at the end of STIV*. If that idea originated in STIII then I wouldn't be surprised if Nimoy stipulated that the Excelsior look similar enough to the Enterprise to be recognisable.

Given that the early concepts show a more radical design, I'm willing to bet the idea came later, or was simply not stated in the initial design brief.

* Indeed, if you look at the footage as shot, that could well have been the intent right up until post production. The crew's dialogue and reactions are just as consistent with seeing the Excelsior with the Ent's name painted on it as what we ended up with. All they needed to change was the model show. I'd be curious to know if that was indeed the case.
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Old August 28 2013, 06:35 AM   #156
Dukhat
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Reverend wrote: View Post
* Indeed, if you look at the footage as shot, that could well have been the intent right up until post production. The crew's dialogue and reactions are just as consistent with seeing the Excelsior with the Ent's name painted on it as what we ended up with. All they needed to change was the model show. I'd be curious to know if that was indeed the case.
As cool as that would have been, I don't think that was the intent for the final scene. Scotty just called the Excelsior a "bucket of bolts." If the ship had been renamed the Enterprise, it still would have been a "bucket of bolts" to Scotty and the audience, albeit a bucket of bolts with a different name. I think by that point in the production, the "Excelsior is Kirk's next command" thing was dropped.

Of course, the Enterprise-A ended up as a bucket of bolts in STV. Ironyyyyyyy!
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Old August 28 2013, 10:17 AM   #157
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

^Who knows, maybe the idea of the new Enterprise being a half finished mess in STV was a holdover from that idea? I would certainly make more sense IMO. I mean the Excelsior is still a prototype, with all the inherent teething problems that implies while you have to assume SF had gotten pretty good at building Connies by that point, no? Plus as we saw, a ship in desperate need of attention is Scotty's idea of paradise!

Also, didn't some of the bridge display graphics for the new bridge mention transwarp drive somewhere? My memory is a little fuzzy.

As an added bonus I do remember that neither the STIV or later versions of the E-A's plaque specified that it was a Connie.

Last edited by Reverend; August 28 2013 at 10:35 AM.
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Old August 28 2013, 10:36 AM   #158
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Of course, the Enterprise-A ended up as a bucket of bolts in STV. Ironyyyyyyy!
Indeed, and I'd say that a ship "put together by monkeys" (Scotty, ST V) could probably be handled by "a chimpanzee and two trainees" (Scotty, ST III).

But seriously, what the fxxx where Nimoy and Bennett thinking?

First, they listen to Enterprise-hater Ken Ralston who pitched the idea to have the Enterprise destroyed in ST III. And in the very next movie they suddenly realize how stupid they were listening to this guy and resurrect the Enterprise.

Did they consider Excelsior to be Kirk's next assignment? Unless they wanted to look stupid (see above) I can imagine they seriously thought about this. But I vividly remember the fans expressing their dislike with the Excelsior (with Bjo Trimble as a very prominent spokesperson) so Nimoy and Bennett (reluctantly?) apparently decided to appease the fans to sell movie tickets and avoid bad PR.

In retrospect and the audio commentaries for ST III all the other ships - of course - were no match for the Enterprise according to Nimoy and Bennett. I still need to listen how they explained the Enterprise's comeback at the end of ST IV...

Bob

@ Reverend

I've been told in another thread that the Enterprise-A's bridge display illustrations, indicating "transwarp", were a deliberate alteration of Shane Johnson, author of the movie Enterprise guidebook.
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Old August 28 2013, 02:23 PM   #159
Mario de Monti
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I've been told in another thread that the Enterprise-A's bridge display illustrations, indicating "transwarp", were a deliberate alteration of Shane Johnson, author of the movie Enterprise guidebook.
IIRC, Shane Johnson explains in his book, that he got the "transwarp" information from Mike Okuda, along with the display graphics. He also says, that these graphics were indeed intended to read "transwarp" onscreen and that they changed it for the movie only after he (SJ) had already included them in Mr. Scott´s Guide to the Enterprise. I have to read up on that to be sure, though.

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Old August 28 2013, 03:05 PM   #160
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

I've read that the Enterprise filming model was apparently a bit cumbersome, and ILM wasn't fond of it. Since they built the Excelsior to their liking, they considered it much easier to film... and indeed, she was somewhat less of a beast. Perhaps one of them floated the suggestion to use that model instead for practical reasons?
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Old August 28 2013, 03:11 PM   #161
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

I can understand why people complained about the idea of the Excelsior replacing the old Connie design. For one thing fans ALWAYS complain about change. Always. Without fail. Even if the thing being changed is something they complained about when it turned up in the first place. Secondly, it's just not a very consistent or carefully thought out design and like the Oberth, the details are somewhat wanting.

I mean Probert spent WAY more time and thought into designing the refit (and later, the E-D) than whomever it was at ILM responsible for the Excelsior & the Grissom. Not that I'm criticizing the quality mind. They're all quality builds and the sleek, low detail aesthetic was most likely mandated, but they just felt like a little too much of a departure from the look of the Enterprise & the Reliant IMO.
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Old August 28 2013, 03:29 PM   #162
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Reverend wrote: View Post
For one thing fans ALWAYS complain about change. Always. Without fail.


Or the proposal of new perspectives that do not fit treknological assumptions that the majority of fans have somewhat agreed upon and/or remained undisputed over an extended period of time .

Bob
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Old August 28 2013, 04:05 PM   #163
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

To paraphase the Borg:

"We are the fans. Lower your pens and surrender your scripts. Your literary and Treknological assertions will be rejected by our own. Your productions will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."

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Old August 28 2013, 06:54 PM   #164
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Hate to go off on yet another tangent, but....

Dukhat wrote: View Post
And remember the Merchantman? Study models were made for that as well, one of which can actually be seen sitting in Spacedock (the barge/dumpster-looking thing under a ramp). It doesn't look anything like the final Merchantman design.
You have a source for this, or any other info? This is the first time I've seen anything new on that particular ship in years. The last time I saw it discussed was back on the Flare board, where it was undecided whether it was a ship or part of spacedock, and had basically become Topic Verbotten (like the length of the Defiant).
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Old August 28 2013, 08:07 PM   #165
Dukhat
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
But seriously, what the fxxx where Nimoy and Bennett thinking?

First, they listen to Enterprise-hater Ken Ralston who pitched the idea to have the Enterprise destroyed in ST III. And in the very next movie they suddenly realize how stupid they were listening to this guy and resurrect the Enterprise.
You are overly-dramatizing things. ILM had always complained about filming the TMP Enterprise model. It was large and unwieldy, and very hard to get good camera angles for it. That was the main reason why the Excelsior model was designed and built: It was eventually supposed to become Kirk's new command after the 1701 was destroyed in STIII, and it was a much easier model to shoot.

Did they consider Excelsior to be Kirk's next assignment? Unless they wanted to look stupid (see above) I can imagine they seriously thought about this.
See above.

But I vividly remember the fans expressing their dislike with the Excelsior (with Bjo Trimble as a very prominent spokesperson) so Nimoy and Bennett (reluctantly?) apparently decided to appease the fans to sell movie tickets and avoid bad PR.
While there was some fan resentment toward the Excelsior, I seriously doubt that had anything to do with the Enterprise-A being another Connie. By that time the idea of the Excelsior being Kirk's new ship was dropped, so they basically just resorted to using what they had for a five-second ending scene: the TMP Enterprise.

B.J. wrote: View Post
You have a source for this, or any other info? This is the first time I've seen anything new on that particular ship in years. The last time I saw it discussed was back on the Flare board, where it was undecided whether it was a ship or part of spacedock, and had basically become Topic Verbotten (like the length of the Defiant).
TrekBBS member Maurice had the opportunity to discuss this with Bill George, who stated that he thought the ship was a study model for the Merchantman. No, it's not clear-cut proof, but this info did come from a reputable source.
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