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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 12 2013, 03:22 PM   #271
sariel2005
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

It is interesting how the Riker character evolved, or perhaps more accurately, devolved. He was originally billed as the Kirk-style action hero, with Picard as the more remote figure head captain. Riker had a spotless resume and the strength of character to play the role that Picard wanted: tough when Picard needed someone to be his hatchet man and someone to soften the edges in his dealings with children. Riker peaked in BoBW, but after that, for the writers where could they take him? They had to start coming up with excuses for his reluctance to take the center seat, with Chain of Command making him look like an immature crybaby and Pegasus making him look like a self-serving opportunist.
Rikers later development didn't do the spotless hero any favours thats for sure. Just watched Second Chances and well...
Riker it turns out dumped Troi, to pursue his career pretty much out of the blue and after he had proposed to her. By the sounds of it not only did he not see her as planned on Risa but... he didn't even tell her in person. In retrospect its kind of funny that HE is the one who looks put out and Deanna is warm and friendly when they next meet in Encounter at Farpoint.
Better yet the episode showcases his treating subordinates like crap, with his treatment of Lt Riker, Think Jellico was out of order for dressing down Riker in ten Forward, that maybe he should have had a word in private, perhaps considered how jarring the new circumstance were? Well Commander Riker dresses down Lt Riker in the open, in Engineering and gives ZERO consideration to the unique circumstances....



Then warns Deanna to be careful, since if he was a douchebag eight years ago, then his other self probably is, and I can't help thinking that does indeed sour the relationship - TBF theres no reason why Troi should consider that eight years of being alone hoping to see his lover again would change LT Riker is some way

EDIT: And it just occured to me, that Riker going on about the women on Risa in "Captains Holiday" while Troi is present, given he stood her up there is in VERY poor taste.

Last edited by sariel2005; August 12 2013 at 03:48 PM.
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Old August 17 2013, 07:59 PM   #272
sariel2005
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

An additional thought as I continue a watch through of TNG, you know who handles this situation exactly right?
Data - in Gambit. He sees a problem with the way Worf, as first officer is acting, and takes him aside to talk to him. He is even considers the situation enough to appologise if their friendship has been been ended due to his actions.
though when stating that Riker never openly opposed the captains orders he forgets Rikers actions towards Jellico to be fair.
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Old August 18 2013, 01:32 AM   #273
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

And Worf was man enough to admit, hey he's been acting wrong. That was an example of everyone doing it right, even when they(or at least Worf) messed up.
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Old August 24 2013, 08:04 AM   #274
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

I still tend to think that Riker, as both the enforcer of the Captains orders and the liaison between the crew and Captain, had been made a part of the loop with Admiral Nachev and Jellico he would have acted differently. He would have told Geordi, to get it done and if Geordi needed more men he would go to Jellico to ask for more men for Engineering. I think he was experienced enough to have had the argument about a captured Picard in private.

Also I think think Jellico exploited Data. Data doesn't lie unless the situation calls for it. And Jellico needed a "yes man" as his XO. Riker couldn't fit that role, especially since he was out of the loop.
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Old August 24 2013, 03:53 PM   #275
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Vanyel wrote: View Post
I still tend to think that Riker, as both the enforcer of the Captains orders and the liaison between the crew and Captain, had been made a part of the loop with Admiral Nachev and Jellico he would have acted differently. He would have told Geordi, to get it done and if Geordi needed more men he would go to Jellico to ask for more men for Engineering. I think he was experienced enough to have had the argument about a captured Picard in private.
Riker was "in the loop" by virtue of being the XO on the ship and required by duty to execute the captain's orders. There's absolutely nothing going on in this episode that prevents Riker from doing his job -- unless you're saying that Riker's difficulty in following orders stemmed from the fact that he wasn't included in high level discussions about the situation when Jellico and Nachaev discussed the mission. If that's the case, however, he shouldn't be working at a replimat, let alone on a starship.

Also I think think Jellico exploited Data. Data doesn't lie unless the situation calls for it. And Jellico needed a "yes man" as his XO. Riker couldn't fit that role, especially since he was out of the loop.
Yes, Jellico indeed exploited Data's ability to follow orders and tell the truth. In other words - Jellico was utilizing the second officer's ability to be an effective XO since the actual XO wasn't actually interested in doing his job as long as Jellico was there.
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Old August 24 2013, 05:36 PM   #276
Mojochi
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

sariel2005 wrote: View Post
An additional thought as I continue a watch through of TNG, you know who handles this situation exactly right?
Data - in Gambit. He sees a problem with the way Worf, as first officer is acting, and takes him aside to talk to him. He is even considers the situation enough to appologise if their friendship has been been ended due to his actions.
though when stating that Riker never openly opposed the captains orders he forgets Rikers actions towards Jellico to be fair.
Well, he did say "Captain Picard" but I agree, Data displays in that scene perhaps the most considerate attitude of just about any Trek captain ever, which works out well for him as Worf understands, & they have a longstanding relationship to their mutual benefit.

It's a technique which gave Data considerably more difficulty with Hobson on the Sutherland however. Unwelcomed commands coming from new commanders can meet resistance & sometimes the captain has to just tell the XO the shut it or find a new job, if it persists

Riker was nothing if not persistent in his resistance to Jellico
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Old August 25 2013, 09:02 PM   #277
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Vanyel wrote: View Post
Also I think think Jellico exploited Data. Data doesn't lie unless the situation calls for it. And Jellico needed a "yes man" as his XO. Riker couldn't fit that role, especially since he was out of the loop.
Data was not a "yes man". He carried out orders that were possible and when the orders could not be carried out he said so and explained why. It's to Jellico's credit that despite the enormous pressure he was under, he was able to swallow his pride and subdue his command ego and back off to a doable stance.
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Old August 25 2013, 09:30 PM   #278
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Ronny Cox had a tough job to fill. He had to convince us he was a capable commander with a different style, and whose actions can be seen as plausible, yet he still has to be the bad guy on the ship. I'm glad he had success with villains; when he was playing good guys, like in Deliverance or his own TV series "Apple's Way", he was often unmemorable. Except when playing his guitar with a kid on a banjo.
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Old August 25 2013, 10:09 PM   #279
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

If the plan from the start was to plan an unstable lone wolf Captain with no fucks to give, then letting the senior staff in on it would be a bad idea. Jellico didn't need people acting the way they were told, he needed them reacting to him to his reputation. Gets an honest reaction out of the crew and you don't have to worry about someone slipping up in front of the Cardies.
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Old August 25 2013, 10:26 PM   #280
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Vanyel wrote: View Post
I still tend to think that Riker, as both the enforcer of the Captains orders and the liaison between the crew and Captain, had been made a part of the loop with Admiral Nachev and Jellico he would have acted differently. He would have told Geordi, to get it done and if Geordi needed more men he would go to Jellico to ask for more men for Engineering. I think he was experienced enough to have had the argument about a captured Picard in private.
In the very beginning of the two-parter Riker seems to be offended that he wasn't given command of the Enterprise in Picard's absence. Or at least that's the way Nechayev interprets Riker's reaction when she breaks the news.

Maybe there was some truth to Nechayev's observation (given that Riker had already officially served as captain of the Enterprise in BOBW somewhat understandable IMO). And maybe Riker's ego was even further bruised when Jellico turned out to be a very hands-on captain who wanted to be kept in the loop over every detail, while Picard seemed to have delegated command decisions over a lot of the ship's routine operations to Riker who then acted more of a "co-captain".

It could be a "As commmander of the Enterprise I saved Earth from the Borg, but now Starfleet (and the new captain) treats me like a junior lieutenant" thing.
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Old August 26 2013, 04:02 PM   #281
Nine of Four
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
1) I only *this second* realized the double-meaning of 'chains of command'. I'm not too bright in word association unless I apply myself. S**t, I thought Borg was just a cool name for about 10 years.
Tru dat!! I did too....

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Old August 26 2013, 04:24 PM   #282
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
Vanyel wrote: View Post
I still tend to think that Riker, as both the enforcer of the Captains orders and the liaison between the crew and Captain, had been made a part of the loop with Admiral Nachev and Jellico he would have acted differently. He would have told Geordi, to get it done and if Geordi needed more men he would go to Jellico to ask for more men for Engineering. I think he was experienced enough to have had the argument about a captured Picard in private.
In the very beginning of the two-parter Riker seems to be offended that he wasn't given command of the Enterprise in Picard's absence. Or at least that's the way Nechayev interprets Riker's reaction when she breaks the news.

Maybe there was some truth to Nechayev's observation (given that Riker had already officially served as captain of the Enterprise in BOBW somewhat understandable IMO). And maybe Riker's ego was even further bruised when Jellico turned out to be a very hands-on captain who wanted to be kept in the loop over every detail, while Picard seemed to have delegated command decisions over a lot of the ship's routine operations to Riker who then acted more of a "co-captain".

It could be a "As commmander of the Enterprise I saved Earth from the Borg, but now Starfleet (and the new captain) treats me like a junior lieutenant" thing.
During the meeting with the Cardies where it's revealed they've captured Picard, we see why Riker would have been a bad choice to handle the negotiations: His reaction. He's too attached to Picard.
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Old August 26 2013, 11:59 PM   #283
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Nine of Four wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
1) I only *this second* realized the double-meaning of 'chains of command'. I'm not too bright in word association unless I apply myself. S**t, I thought Borg was just a cool name for about 10 years.
Tru dat!! I did too....

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I'm undoubtedly slow. What is the hidden, for me anyway, meaning of Borg?
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Old August 27 2013, 12:42 AM   #284
Nine of Four
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

jpv2000 wrote: View Post
Nine of Four wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
1) I only *this second* realized the double-meaning of 'chains of command'. I'm not too bright in word association unless I apply myself. S**t, I thought Borg was just a cool name for about 10 years.
Tru dat!! I did too....

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I'm undoubtedly slow. What is the hidden, for me anyway, meaning of Borg?
cyBORG.

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Old August 28 2013, 12:11 AM   #285
jpv2000
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Nine of Four wrote: View Post
jpv2000 wrote: View Post
Nine of Four wrote: View Post

Tru dat!! I did too....

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I'm undoubtedly slow. What is the hidden, for me anyway, meaning of Borg?
cyBORG.

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Oddly enough I just read that today in Destiny Book Three: Lost Souls.

Thank You, for explaining however. It seemed so obvious when I read that. I guess I really am slow.
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