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Old August 26 2013, 02:31 PM   #31
Geoff Peterson
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Re: Would Q allow humanity or federation to be dstroyed?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post

It has never been about the Federation, it has always been about humanity. Humans are the main reason for the Federation being as powerful as it has become. Besides, you can't expect the audience to care about the unseen alien races that rarely appear onscreen.
I still think having Q single out humans on a Federation ship is poor writing and runs counter to the setting of the show.
Q took an interest in the human species. He couldn't have cared less what political alliance they belonged to. That would just be lines on a map that was drawn by ants.
That's in-universe. My objections are from a creative standpoint.
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Old August 26 2013, 02:57 PM   #32
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Re: Would Q allow humanity or federation to be dstroyed?

^Then I'd have to second what Dream said. From a creative standpoint, Star Trek was always about the future of humanity first and foremost.
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Old August 26 2013, 02:58 PM   #33
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Re: Would Q allow humanity or federation to be dstroyed?

^Right. Creatively it's self-evident why the character's focus would be on humans, the species that the entire viewing audience (presumably) belongs to, rather than on imaginary aliens whose creative purpose is to serve as allegories for aspects of humanity.

You'd be hard-pressed to find a science fiction franchise where humans aren't central. In Doctor Who, humans are the Doctor's favorite species even though he can travel the universe and visit every species that's ever lived. In Babylon 5, humans are the one species with the religious and cultural diversity that the other Planet-of-Hats aliens lack, the one species that's able to stand up to the Vorlons and Shadows and tell them to mind their own business, and the one species that's able to unify the others into an interstellar alliance. In David Brin's Uplift universe, humans are the newest and least powerful civilization in the galaxy, but are unique in that they evolved intelligence spontaneously rather than having been uplifted by an alien race, and that puts them at the heart of many galactic controversies and power struggles. And there are plenty of SF universes, from Asimov's Empire-Foundation universe to Moore's Galactica-Caprica universe, where humans are the only intelligent life around.
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Old August 26 2013, 03:09 PM   #34
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Re: Would Q allow humanity or federation to be dstroyed?

I believe it is possible to focus on humanity while not being human or earth-centric. It's all in how you tell the story.

All of Trek has always contradicted it's multicultural philosophy with the way stories are told and non-humans are presented. It's subtle things such as describing aliens. TOS was especially guilty of this. Spock, a Vulcan, never called something human as being "alien in origin." Alien was always used to describe something non human or not from Earth. Everything was an Earth colony.

You can create a story, such as Star Trek IV where Earth (and therefore humanity) is threatened yet the dialog doesn't have the characters singling out Humans specifically. It's the 24th century (well, 23rd in TOS era) and humans are spread all over the quadrant and there are millions of non-humans living on Earth.

Sure, maybe Q had something of a special interest in humans. A botanist may study a wide variety of plants and still can have a favorite flower. Q might just have some special fondness with humans which is why he singles them out.

Regardless, there are still ways to tell the story that gets your human audience involved and engaged while creatively treating the galaxy as a cosmopolitan place instead of always being human first.
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Old August 26 2013, 03:38 PM   #35
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Re: Would Q allow humanity or federation to be dstroyed?

Shawnster wrote: View Post
Regardless, there are still ways to tell the story that gets your human audience involved and engaged while creatively treating the galaxy as a cosmopolitan place instead of always being human first.
Sure there are. Just don't expect Gene Roddenberry to write a story like that. This was a guy who said humans are so great they should build statues to us. (Which, umm, I kinda think they do already.)
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Old August 26 2013, 03:41 PM   #36
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Re: Would Q allow humanity or federation to be dstroyed?

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Right. Creatively it's self-evident why the character's focus would be on humans, the species that the entire viewing audience (presumably) belongs to, rather than on imaginary aliens whose creative purpose is to serve as allegories for aspects of humanity.

You'd be hard-pressed to find a science fiction franchise where humans aren't central. In Doctor Who, humans are the Doctor's favorite species even though he can travel the universe and visit every species that's ever lived. In Babylon 5, humans are the one species with the religious and cultural diversity that the other Planet-of-Hats aliens lack, the one species that's able to stand up to the Vorlons and Shadows and tell them to mind their own business, and the one species that's able to unify the others into an interstellar alliance. In David Brin's Uplift universe, humans are the newest and least powerful civilization in the galaxy, but are unique in that they evolved intelligence spontaneously rather than having been uplifted by an alien race, and that puts them at the heart of many galactic controversies and power struggles. And there are plenty of SF universes, from Asimov's Empire-Foundation universe to Moore's Galactica-Caprica universe, where humans are the only intelligent life around.
Of course, there's always Farscape...

“I’m only judging on my experience with you, but I’ve never seen such a deficient species. You have no special abilities. You’re not particularly smart, can hardly smell, can barely see, and you're not even vaguely physically or spiritually imposing. Is there anything you do well?”

“Watch football.”
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Old August 26 2013, 03:52 PM   #37
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Re: Would Q allow humanity or federation to be dstroyed?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
Imagine a scenario where Earth was about to be destroyed and Picard failed to stop it. Let's say the Enterprise, Picard, and the crew were all killed in a failed attempt to stop whatever the threat was. It doesn't matter which scenario, but one of these could be a possibility, just as examples of a hopeless, worst case scenario:

1. In Best of Both Worlds, Riker failed to recapture Picard, and the Borg took over the Earth.

2. Picard and Crew failed to stop the Borg from altering the timeline in First Contact.

3. Shinzon destroyed the Enterprise, sneaked past the USS Galaxy and battle group, made it to Earth, and saturated it with Thalaron radiation.

Or any other scenario where the outcome is the same.

So, given that Q, at least the one we know as Q (John Delancie) has an infatuation with humans in particular, and at least in All Good THings, saved humanity (or more properly, gave Picard the hint that saved humanity), would Q stand by as humanity was snuffed out, or would he intervene?
Considering all the realities where the federation was screwed over I don't think he would save the day.
Q(John Delancie)'s obsession was specifically with the "true" timeline, the other timelines were invalid to him. Also, in "Q-Squared", by Peter David, he directly aids Picard in saving humanity and killing Trelane.

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Old August 26 2013, 04:19 PM   #38
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Re: Would Q allow humanity or federation to be dstroyed?

Humans must be the sexiest and best tasting species in the universe, since aliens always want to steal our women and write cookbooks about us.
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Old August 26 2013, 06:54 PM   #39
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Re: Would Q allow humanity or federation to be dstroyed?

Melakon wrote: View Post
Roddenberry apparently got the idea of Q after the main story involving the jellyfish aliens was developed. So the trial plot was probably quickly written and just shoved in there where it could fit.
Roddenberry and Paramount haggled quite a bit over whether the pilot episode would be a standard hour, 90 minutes, two hours, etc. The original story just concerned Farpoint station and the jellyfish aliens. When it was finally agreed that it would be a 2-hour pilot, the Q story was hastily concocted to fill out the extra time. If I'm not mistaken, I think D.C. Fontana came up with the Q parts.

Even still, you can tell that the episode is heavily padded to fill out the two hours. The pacing and the editing are kept deliberately slow so as to run out the clock. It's essentially a one-hour story being told in two hours, and the episode is hurt by that.
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Old August 26 2013, 08:04 PM   #40
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Re: Would Q allow humanity or federation to be dstroyed?

CoveTom wrote: View Post
Roddenberry and Paramount haggled quite a bit over whether the pilot episode would be a standard hour, 90 minutes, two hours, etc. The original story just concerned Farpoint station and the jellyfish aliens. When it was finally agreed that it would be a 2-hour pilot, the Q story was hastily concocted to fill out the extra time. If I'm not mistaken, I think D.C. Fontana came up with the Q parts.
No, Fontana wrote the 90-minute draft dealing with Farpoint Station and the star-jellies, and then Roddenberry tacked on the Q subplot when an extra half-hour was added. The Q material is pretty clearly Roddenberry's work, since it's ultra-preachy about humanity transcending its past, and rehashes a lot of familiar Roddenberrian tropes like the superbeing testing humanity and the near-future WWIII that humanity will have to endure before coming to its senses. Indeed, the portrayal of "the Post-Atomic Horror" and the post-WWIII history feels very much like a reworking of ideas from Roddenberry's Genesis II/Planet Earth pilots.


Even still, you can tell that the episode is heavily padded to fill out the two hours. The pacing and the editing are kept deliberately slow so as to run out the clock. It's essentially a one-hour story being told in two hours, and the episode is hurt by that.
Well, it's a 90-minute story being told in two hours. Given all the characters and ideas they had to introduce, I'm not sure they could've fit it into one hour (or rather, 42 minutes).

I think the same thing may have happened with the pilot of Paramount's War of the Worlds: The Series a year later. That pilot periodically veers off into a subplot about the disintegration of the lead character's relationship with his girlfriend (Gwynyth Walsh) due to his obsession with his work, and in the second half of the pilot that subplot is just abandoned and never mentioned again. It's completely tacked on and unconnected to the rest of the story, and seems to take up about 1/4 of the runtime, so I suspect it was the same situation as the "Farpoint" pilot, a subplot added to flesh out a 90-minute story to 2 hours. At least the Q subplot was tied into the main story of "Farpoint," however awkwardly.
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Old August 26 2013, 09:38 PM   #41
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Re: Would Q allow humanity or federation to be dstroyed?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Sure there are. Just don't expect Gene Roddenberry to write a story like that. This was a guy who said humans are so great they should build statues to us.
Never heard that one before. Was he getting kickbacks from John W. Campbell, Jr. or something?
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Old August 26 2013, 09:42 PM   #42
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Re: Would Q allow humanity or federation to be dstroyed?

^No, Campbell's humans-first preferences in his fiction seemed to be an allegory for certain racial and cultural prejudices (at least, Asimov was uncomfortable enough with Campbell's politics that he wrote in humans-only universes in order to skirt the issue), whereas Roddenberry appreciated humans of all creeds and colors (though he had some problematical ideas about gender).
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Old August 26 2013, 09:47 PM   #43
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Re: Would Q allow humanity or federation to be dstroyed?

That's true, he did.

(I knew that about Asimov; that's where I learned about Campbell.)
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Old August 27 2013, 03:31 AM   #44
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Re: Would Q allow humanity or federation to be dstroyed?

Christopher wrote: View Post
You'd be hard-pressed to find a science fiction franchise where humans aren't central.
Andromeda
(In that show, humanity was never that important a species, whether it be in the old Commonwealth or the new one.)
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Old August 27 2013, 04:19 AM   #45
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Re: Would Q allow humanity or federation to be dstroyed?

But Dylan is the main focus, and a character that is easy for a first time viewer to latch onto early in the series.
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