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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old August 26 2013, 02:36 PM   #16
Santa Kang
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Re: Do you think Starfleet felt Kirk had failed any of the missions?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Terrel didn't know. Marcus didn't know. No ship was sent to check up on them. Sounds to me Kirk managed to keep this out of the official records.
Again you're making an assumption. Hostile people tried to forcibly hijack his ship. You don't think that was logged? Hell, we actually hear Kirk's log entries about the whole thing. No way he hid that baby. Starfleet could just as easily said, "Not your problem anymore, Kirk. We"ll deal with it." Maybe Starfleet is the one who hushes it up and keeps it out of the records.
I can only go with the facts as presented. If there was a planet full of supermen with a tendency for megalomania I'd send a probe or two to keep track of them and go all Talos on the system they were in.
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Old August 26 2013, 02:40 PM   #17
Robert Comsol
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Re: Do you think Starfleet felt Kirk had failed any of the missions?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Either side has a case within context of their own principles so how is it decided which one is right?
Contact the Excalbians.

But seriously, I'd really like to know the details of the Organian Peace Treaty. Considering the Organians didn't want outsiders to interfere with their business (and probably gave the Federation a lecture of their Prime Directive) I'd think it would stand to reason that the peace treaty also included a prime directive for planets disputed by either two. How the Organians ensured that both sides would honor the treaty, is a different can of worms.

Regarding Kirk's actions prior and during ST II I couldn't help but to mention this in the Excelsior scaling thread (and Timo disagreed).

Considering that the Talos IV incident had been filed (what good is the threat of the death penalty if no one knows it exists?) I'd assume that the same applied for Ceti Alpha V.

Vonda McIntyre's novelization of TWOK suggested that Reliant's crew was so burned out (and close to mutiny) trying to find a suitable Genesis test planet, that somebody simply overlooked this decisive detail.

So who was responsible for the entire Mutara Mess? Blame it on the deceased Captain Terrell, Chekov, the Reliant's science officer (Kyle?) or Kirk?
Did Terrell sacrifice himself not only to save the life of Kirk but in full awareness that he would be blamed and no other member of his crew?

Bob
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Old August 26 2013, 03:05 PM   #18
Nine of Four
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Re: Do you think Starfleet felt Kirk had failed any of the missions?

In The Undiscovered Country, the Enterprise is 1701-A is decommissioned, because of Kirks actions, however justifiable. This leads to the assumption that Starfleet was not exactly thrilled with him.

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Old August 26 2013, 03:16 PM   #19
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Re: Do you think Starfleet felt Kirk had failed any of the missions?

Nine of Four wrote: View Post
In The Undiscovered Country, the Enterprise is 1701-A is decommissioned, because of Kirks actions, however justifiable. This leads to the assumption that Starfleet was not exactly thrilled with him.

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They were all retiring or moving onto other assignments anyways. They were due to stand down in three months according to Kirk.
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Old August 26 2013, 03:16 PM   #20
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Re: Do you think Starfleet felt Kirk had failed any of the missions?

Wasn't Kyle the communications officer on the Reliant.

The big question is how could they ended up mistaking Ceti Alpha V for Ceti Alpha VI. I could just about buy them not realising a planet was missing. They weren't looking for it. It is possible that Starfleet had simply come up with a list of planets to survey and Ceti Alpha VI was on the list. But if that was the case surely they would know where each planet in the Cetia Alpha system should be.
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Old August 26 2013, 03:22 PM   #21
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Re: Do you think Starfleet felt Kirk had failed any of the missions?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Nine of Four wrote: View Post
In The Undiscovered Country, the Enterprise is 1701-A is decommissioned, because of Kirks actions, however justifiable. This leads to the assumption that Starfleet was not exactly thrilled with him.

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They were all retiring or moving onto other assignments anyways. They were due to stand down in three months according to Kirk.
Preventing a likely galactic war (had the UFP President been assinated) I suspect command would be delighted with him. We also have no idea how old the 1701-A was. Command might have recieved preliminary damaged reports and decided the ship wasn't worth the effort of repairing.
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Old August 26 2013, 03:33 PM   #22
Nine of Four
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Re: Do you think Starfleet felt Kirk had failed any of the missions?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Nine of Four wrote: View Post
In The Undiscovered Country, the Enterprise is 1701-A is decommissioned, because of Kirks actions, however justifiable. This leads to the assumption that Starfleet was not exactly thrilled with him.

-
They were all retiring or moving onto other assignments anyways. They were due to stand down in three months according to Kirk.
Preventing a likely galactic war (had the UFP President been assinated) I suspect command would be delighted with him. We also have no idea how old the 1701-A was. Command might have recieved preliminary damaged reports and decided the ship wasn't worth the effort of repairing.
True, another refit of the Enterprise could be tedious....

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Old August 26 2013, 03:46 PM   #23
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Re: Do you think Starfleet felt Kirk had failed any of the missions?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Preventing a likely galactic war (had the UFP President been assinated) I suspect command would be delighted with him. We also have no idea how old the 1701-A was. Command might have recieved preliminary damaged reports and decided the ship wasn't worth the effort of repairing.
The 1701-B would've already been on the drawing board since it launches a year after the events of The Undiscovered Country. Likely the 1701-A would've been put out to pasture when Kirk had retired anyway. The battle damage just accelerated the retirement of the ship.
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Old August 26 2013, 03:51 PM   #24
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Re: Do you think Starfleet felt Kirk had failed any of the missions?

Or it might be a case of that due to the events of TUC, Starfleet decided to name the next Excelsior Class vessel Enterprise.
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Old August 26 2013, 06:57 PM   #25
Robert Comsol
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Re: Do you think Starfleet felt Kirk had failed any of the missions?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Wasn't Kyle the communications officer on the Reliant.
Yes, you are probably right. Did the ship have a science officer as far as we can tell or did he conveniently disappear?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
The big question is how could they ended up mistaking Ceti Alpha V for Ceti Alpha VI. I could just about buy them not realising a planet was missing. They weren't looking for it. It is possible that Starfleet had simply come up with a list of planets to survey and Ceti Alpha VI was on the list. But if that was the case surely they would know where each planet in the Cetia Alpha system should be.
Really looks like the entire system had been quarantined, and definitely no one bothered to see if Khan and company were doing alright. Apparently, Ceti Alpha VI vanished inside a major black plot hole...

Bob
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Old August 26 2013, 08:19 PM   #26
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Re: Do you think Starfleet felt Kirk had failed any of the missions?

Considering the Organians didn't want outsiders to interfere with their business (and probably gave the Federation a lecture of their Prime Directive) I'd think it would stand to reason that the peace treaty also included a prime directive for planets disputed by either two. How the Organians ensured that both sides would honor the treaty, is a different can of worms.
Considering the Organians didn't like outsiders, it seems likely the Organians had absolutely nothing to do with the Organian Peace Treaty. The two sides neutered by the Organians just made lemonade out of that particular lemon, and decided to agree on some things for a change.

Thus, when the treaty was broken, the Organians paid no attention. But the Feds would watch for Klingons breaking the treaty, and vice versa, in addition to doing their best to cover up their own violations. Until one side or both felt they no longer needed to cower behind a piece of paper, that is.

But if that was the case surely they would know where each planet in the Cetia Alpha system should be.
I don't see why that should be. Planets move, and Newtonian mechanics is a surprisingly inaccurate discipline when it comes to seven-or-more-body problems such as the Ceti A system. What Starfleet would know is that the desert world in that system is Ceti A VI...

Command might have recieved preliminary damaged reports and decided the ship wasn't worth the effort of repairing.
But at the end of the movie, Kirk said the ship would continue serving. This either suggests he was in deep denial, or establishes that the "decommissioning" mentioned was of the top officers, not of the ship, and the decision to scrap the E-A came only later (or Kirk wasn't informed of it until later).

Yes, you are probably right. Did the ship have a science officer as far as we can tell or did he conveniently disappear?
None of the officers we saw wore the collar directly indicative of a Sciences job. We saw white on Capt Terrell, yellow on Cmdr Beach, green on a low-ranking female officer, and grey on Commanders Chekov and Kyle. Very high ranks there, compared with TOS... But Beach sat at the supposed Sciences station: perhaps he doubled as the ship's CSO, in addition to his "day job" (which may have been at Helm, since few other stations at the time accommodated yellowcollars).

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Old August 26 2013, 09:49 PM   #27
Robert Comsol
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Re: Do you think Starfleet felt Kirk had failed any of the missions?

Timo wrote: View Post
Planets move, and Newtonian mechanics is a surprisingly inaccurate discipline when it comes to seven-or-more-body problems such as the Ceti A system. What Starfleet would know is that the desert world in that system is Ceti A VI...
Excuse me, they don't have the means in the 23rd Century to properly chart a star system and realize there's something wrong with one of the planets which is going to explode in six months?!? Really looks like somebody in stellar cartography aboard Kirk's Enterprise screwed up big time in "Space Seed".

Timo wrote: View Post
None of the officers we saw wore the collar directly indicative of a Sciences job.
Rather odd for a ship assigned to a scientific mission, wouldn't you say? This really starts to look more and more like an Alien scenario. Except that someone in Starfleet didn't want the Ceti Eels as a biological weapon, but possibly see Khan return to Earth.

Bob
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Old August 26 2013, 09:59 PM   #28
Timo
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Re: Do you think Starfleet felt Kirk had failed any of the missions?

Excuse me, they don't have the means in the 23rd Century to properly chart a star system and realize there's something wrong with one of the planets which is going to explode in six months?!?
Why should "proper charting" reveal that a planet is about to explode? And who would have been doing the "charting" - Kirk, in his spare time? He didn't have any! He had already lost enough time fighting a superman that he now needed to regain and hide from Starfleet so that they wouldn't realize he had been fighting a superman...

Rather odd for a ship assigned to a scientific mission, wouldn't you say?
What was scientific about the mission, though? All they were asked to do was check if some hellhole matched the exacting parameters set by the mad scientist: that doesn't call for science skills as such, merely supervision of sensor equipment. And Uhura can operate communications equipment just fine without knowing the first thing about languages!

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Old August 26 2013, 10:31 PM   #29
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Re: Do you think Starfleet felt Kirk had failed any of the missions?

Whilst it is true the orbit of planets around a star do change, that can take thousands of years at least in the Sol System. But I guess that might not be the case for other star systems. But CA V and CA VI must have had a close orbit so that the explosion of one would cause a shift in orbit of the other. Of course Kahn might have thought it was a shift in orbit, but it could simply be that the explosion changed the axis of the planet and the resulting debris that fell on the planet kicked up a lot of dust into the atmosphere. And who knows perhaps the planet had high winds in the upper atmosphere that kept the dust cloud settling within a few years.


But even in our solar system with eight planets, numerous dwarf planets, an asteriod belt so we are talking about thousands of objects. We still managed to launch the Voyager II probe and it mananged to pass by not 1 not 2 not 3 but 4 planets because scientist where able to predict where each planet would be.
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Old August 27 2013, 12:22 AM   #30
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Re: Do you think Starfleet felt Kirk had failed any of the missions?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Apparently, Ceti Alpha VI vanished inside a major black plot hole...
Bob
Tru dat!!

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