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Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

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Old March 12 2013, 01:43 PM   #601
YellowSubmarine
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Could you imagine that as a way to murder someone? Upload their brain into a computer while they sleep, then delete it...
I've always said that not keeping backups should amount to involuntary manslaughter due to recklessness.
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Old March 12 2013, 06:24 PM   #602
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Re: Ancient Aliens

YellowSubmarine wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Could you imagine that as a way to murder someone? Upload their brain into a computer while they sleep, then delete it...
I've always said that not keeping backups should amount to involuntary manslaughter due to recklessness.
I can already see the ads on the Cyborg Church of Christ. "Have you been saved recently? Upgrade your cloud storage to Kingdom of Heaven 2.5 and save your soul today!"
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Old August 25 2013, 08:09 PM   #603
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Re: Ancient Aliens

sojourner wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
emerging exponential technologies like brain uploading/downloading (circa 2025-2050 tech)
Sorry, I had to LOL.

Um...why? There's actually been some progress on this in the last few months since this thread was active..

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Old August 25 2013, 08:22 PM   #604
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
Facts are facts, when you don't require space, food and fuel for humans, the trip becomes easier, cheaper and faster. Arguing otherwise seems ludicrous.
The easiest, cheapest and fastest spaceflight in the world is the one that never leaves the planning stages. You haven't provided a coherent reason yet why any mission more expensive than that would be beneficial to anyone.

When you amplify it out to galaxy exploration, the benefits become clear.
There wouldn't BE any benefits in that case since the people who launch the probe will have entered the fossil record by the time the probe gets anywhere interesting, and their evolutionary descendants will join them by the time anyone on Earth finds out about it, assuming they ever do.

I don't believe there is a single scientist who'd agree with your position.
The position that seeding the universe with human DNA on million-year-long fully automated spaceflights has no concrete scientific or monetary value to anyone currently alive or likely to be alive within the next thousand years?

I think I'll let the scientists speak for themselves on this one.

I'll still say it's almost inevitable this is the way to explore the galaxy.
It isn't, because we're not going to explore the galaxy until we're finished exploring our own solar system IF THEN. We'll have human beings born and raised on space colonies out to ten generations before exploring the galaxy becomes anything more than a sci-fi pipe dream. Otherwise, you're basically in the position of a Polynesian fisherman proposing a moon mission using a canoe strapped to a hot air balloon.
I posted this about a month ago on here somewhere. Look under: "It's Easier for Aliens to Visit than previously thought

http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2013/0...obes-plus.html

There is also the video I posted here from a lecture which suggested a similar timeframe to seeding other galaxies as it is to seed this one.
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Old August 25 2013, 10:57 PM   #605
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Re: Ancient Aliens

RAMA wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
emerging exponential technologies like brain uploading/downloading (circa 2025-2050 tech)
Sorry, I had to LOL.

Um...why? There's actually been some progress on this in the last few months since this thread was active..

RAMA
Your enthusiasm is almost infectious, but let's be frank, it's more like cloning or copying. There's no "transference" in the same way that a fan-made 3d model of the Enterprise is not the original filming model from the 60s.

Brain transfer is not a particularly accurate term to use for the animal brain simulation that's been done.

RAMA wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
Facts are facts, when you don't require space, food and fuel for humans, the trip becomes easier, cheaper and faster. Arguing otherwise seems ludicrous.
The easiest, cheapest and fastest spaceflight in the world is the one that never leaves the planning stages. You haven't provided a coherent reason yet why any mission more expensive than that would be beneficial to anyone.

There wouldn't BE any benefits in that case since the people who launch the probe will have entered the fossil record by the time the probe gets anywhere interesting, and their evolutionary descendants will join them by the time anyone on Earth finds out about it, assuming they ever do.

The position that seeding the universe with human DNA on million-year-long fully automated spaceflights has no concrete scientific or monetary value to anyone currently alive or likely to be alive within the next thousand years?

I think I'll let the scientists speak for themselves on this one.

I'll still say it's almost inevitable this is the way to explore the galaxy.
It isn't, because we're not going to explore the galaxy until we're finished exploring our own solar system IF THEN. We'll have human beings born and raised on space colonies out to ten generations before exploring the galaxy becomes anything more than a sci-fi pipe dream. Otherwise, you're basically in the position of a Polynesian fisherman proposing a moon mission using a canoe strapped to a hot air balloon.
I posted this about a month ago on here somewhere. Look under: "It's Easier for Aliens to Visit than previously thought

http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2013/0...obes-plus.html

There is also the video I posted here from a lecture which suggested a similar timeframe to seeding other galaxies as it is to seed this one.
Just make sure our probes don't collide with anybody else's.
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Old August 25 2013, 11:09 PM   #606
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Herkimer Jitty wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post

Sorry, I had to LOL.

Um...why? There's actually been some progress on this in the last few months since this thread was active..

RAMA
Your enthusiasm is almost infectious, but let's be frank, it's more like cloning or copying. There's no "transference" in the same way that a fan-made 3d model of the Enterprise is not the original filming model from the 60s.

Brain transfer is not a particularly accurate term to use for the animal brain simulation that's been done.

RAMA wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The easiest, cheapest and fastest spaceflight in the world is the one that never leaves the planning stages. You haven't provided a coherent reason yet why any mission more expensive than that would be beneficial to anyone.

There wouldn't BE any benefits in that case since the people who launch the probe will have entered the fossil record by the time the probe gets anywhere interesting, and their evolutionary descendants will join them by the time anyone on Earth finds out about it, assuming they ever do.

The position that seeding the universe with human DNA on million-year-long fully automated spaceflights has no concrete scientific or monetary value to anyone currently alive or likely to be alive within the next thousand years?

I think I'll let the scientists speak for themselves on this one.

It isn't, because we're not going to explore the galaxy until we're finished exploring our own solar system IF THEN. We'll have human beings born and raised on space colonies out to ten generations before exploring the galaxy becomes anything more than a sci-fi pipe dream. Otherwise, you're basically in the position of a Polynesian fisherman proposing a moon mission using a canoe strapped to a hot air balloon.
I posted this about a month ago on here somewhere. Look under: "It's Easier for Aliens to Visit than previously thought

http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2013/0...obes-plus.html

There is also the video I posted here from a lecture which suggested a similar timeframe to seeding other galaxies as it is to seed this one.
Just make sure our probes don't collide with anybody else's.



Not likely, if there's so much space between stars and objects that a galaxy collision won't produce collisions, I doubt a few trillion swarming bots will either.
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Old August 25 2013, 11:16 PM   #607
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Re: Ancient Aliens

STERILIZE
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Old August 28 2013, 06:44 AM   #608
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Re: Ancient Aliens

RAMA wrote: View Post
I posted this about a month ago on here somewhere. Look under: "It's Easier for Aliens to Visit than previously thought

http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2013/0...obes-plus.html

There is also the video I posted here from a lecture which suggested a similar timeframe to seeding other galaxies as it is to seed this one.
Which, as usual, doesn't address the point at all: a civilization that does not explore/colonize its own solar system is in no position to explore/colonize OTHER solar systems.

In much the same way a culture that has not yet discovered air travel probably isn't going to be putting astronauts into orbit.
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Old August 29 2013, 10:28 PM   #609
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Re: Ancient Aliens

I'm suspecting asteroids will eventually be utilized as a source of construction material for orbiting research and manufacturing activities. Governments on Earth will continue the long tradition of a central power wanting to impose its "benevolent" will on distant territories. Some groups of independent minded miners will take a few asteroids in tow to establish a slowly moving colony beyond the reach of government authorities in interstellar space. They will plot their course toward another system so their distant descendents will have the option of settling that system (on a planet or in orbit) or slingshoting back into interstellar space.
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Old August 31 2013, 10:16 PM   #610
RAMA
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
I posted this about a month ago on here somewhere. Look under: "It's Easier for Aliens to Visit than previously thought

http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2013/0...obes-plus.html

There is also the video I posted here from a lecture which suggested a similar timeframe to seeding other galaxies as it is to seed this one.
Which, as usual, doesn't address the point at all: a civilization that does not explore/colonize its own solar system is in no position to explore/colonize OTHER solar systems.

In much the same way a culture that has not yet discovered air travel probably isn't going to be putting astronauts into orbit.
As usual it DOES address the issue, you just have a narrow view of it. The whole point of the lecture was that you very well CAN reach other galaxies in the same timeframe as this one. I almost feel that the solar system(s) is an afterthought at this point, it's a given that we'll either be forced to exploit/settle it or we won't be around for a 100 year starship. We can certainly enhance/mitigate those scenerios with a starseed project.

As for the discovery that aliens might have it easier in settling the galaxy, well of course that's related because it means the timeframe is accelerated more than I originally posted about, and it's analogous to us...so far the only known "alien" species that might colonize the galaxy.

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Old September 1 2013, 03:41 AM   #611
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Re: Ancient Aliens

RAMA wrote: View Post
As usual it DOES address the issue, you just have a narrow view of it.
Actually, I have a realistic view of it. A society with finite resources and a limited lifespan is not going to make an open-ended commitments to support an unproven technology on an untested concept whose prospects for success are entirely unknown and whose tangible benefits will never be returned to the people who actually built it. There is no PRACTICAL reason to attempt to colonize other galaxies -- or even other solar systems -- when you do not yet have the technology to explore your OWN solar system.

The fact that it's impractical doesn't mean the attempt will fail. Quite the opposite, in fact, if it was just a matter of technology it would be easy to conceive of a 100 year starship design that could succeed even using modern technology. On the contrary, the fact that it's an impractical endeavor means that no one who wields the resources to BUILD such a thing would have any logical reason to do so. Put simply: if you were the kind of altruistic dreamer who had a trillion dollars sitting in a bank account somewhere, there are a thousand more important things you would try to do with that money before "100 year starship" even came up in conversation.

The whole point of the lecture was that you very well CAN reach other galaxies in the same timeframe as this one...
In much the same way that you CAN stick your head up an elephant's ass and yell "Geronimo!" at the top of your lungs. Much harder to do is convincing anyone who matters that this is a productive use of one's time.

As for the discovery that aliens might have it easier in settling the galaxy
That's not a discovery, that's a hypothesis with no factual support whatsoever. The reason it's unrelated is because it still assumes the presence of an interstellar exploratory imperative that is not known to exist even in OUR OWN species. You might as well assume that intelligent species on other worlds will have lower population densities because they're more likely to practice cannibalism.
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Old September 1 2013, 10:58 AM   #612
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Crazy Eddie
A society with limited resources/etc will support an untested technology with only symbolic value just fine if it's cheap enough.
And RAMA just pointed out it can be quite cheap - for a society that has colonised its solar system (a very probable step for an intelligent/technological species - we're on the verge of doing it).

BTW, humans do have an exploratory imperative; that's why we don't presently live in a cave in Africa.
That is to say, a fraction of humanity always desired/desires to explore, seek its fortunes beyond the next hill, the next horizon. As for the rest of humanity: in the long term, it becomes irrelevant - just ask those half-monkeys who died in that cave in Africa after their betters left.
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Old September 1 2013, 05:32 PM   #613
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie
A society with limited resources/etc will support an untested technology with only symbolic value just fine if it's cheap enough.
And RAMA just pointed out it can be quite cheap - for a society that has colonised its solar system (a very probable step for an intelligent/technological species - we're on the verge of doing it).
We are about a hundred years short of really beginning the process and at least a thousand short of completing it. It is far from certain along that progression that we actually WILL colonize the solar system, though most of us would like to think so.

What's significant is that we cannot speculate on what a system-spanning society will or will not do with its technology because that society looks dramatically different from ours and has different pressures and priorities. It would also have different capabilities; by the time they have the ability to feasibly construct an interstellar mission, they might not NEED to.

BTW, humans do have an exploratory imperative
In pursuit of a concrete objective, yes. We trek across the plains in search of useable farmland, we sail across an ocean in search of trade routes, gold and other natural resources.

The one thing we have NEVER done is conducted generation-long exploration missions purely out of curiosity. That's the thing about planetary exploration: we haven't figured out yet how to exploit the resources of the other planets, so there's no huge rush of people/governments trying to colonize it now. An interstellar voyage that has no prospects at all to return those resources to Earth (Mars, Ganymede, the People's Republic of Saturn, etc) would be a symbolic gesture AT MOST.

As for the rest of humanity: in the long term, it becomes irrelevant - just ask those half-monkeys who died in that cave in Africa after their betters left.
You DO know people still live in Africa, right?
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Old September 1 2013, 06:55 PM   #614
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie
A society with limited resources/etc will support an untested technology with only symbolic value just fine if it's cheap enough.
And RAMA just pointed out it can be quite cheap - for a society that has colonised its solar system (a very probable step for an intelligent/technological species - we're on the verge of doing it).
We are about a hundred years short of really beginning the process and at least a thousand short of completing it. It is far from certain along that progression that we actually WILL colonize the solar system, though most of us would like to think so.
Far from certain, but quite probable - barring self-destruction.

What's significant is that we cannot speculate on what a system-spanning society will or will not do with its technology because that society looks dramatically different from ours and has different pressures and priorities. It would also have different capabilities; by the time they have the ability to feasibly construct an interstellar mission, they might not NEED to.
Of course we can speculate - our descendants will still be human. Unless you assume a singularity, changing human nature, is coming.
If your horizon for speculation is so limited, what are you even doing on this forum?

And it will not be one society, but many of them, with different values.
And a relatively small group of people belonging to any of them will be enough to launch the kind of interstellar probes RAMA talked about. Enough to launch even more - and that's assuming no technologies not predicted today.


BTW, humans do have an exploratory imperative
In pursuit of a concrete objective, yes. We trek across the plains in search of useable farmland, we sail across an ocean in search of trade routes, gold and other natural resources.

The one thing we have NEVER done is conducted generation-long exploration missions purely out of curiosity. That's the thing about planetary exploration: we haven't figured out yet how to exploit the resources of the other planets, so there's no huge rush of people/governments trying to colonize it now. An interstellar voyage that has no prospects at all to return those resources to Earth (Mars, Ganymede, the People's Republic of Saturn, etc) would be a symbolic gesture AT MOST.
Yes, it would be symbolic, in large part; it will return information to you/your descendants*.
But humans are big on symbolism; a lot of actions/programs were undertaken due to it, in all or in part.
If interstellar probes become cheap enough (as they will for a solar system spanning species), they will enter this category.

BTW, launching RAMA's probes will not be a generations-long undertaking. FAR from it.

*Unless we're talking about interstellar colonisation - which is not symbolic at all.
As for the rest of humanity: in the long term, it becomes irrelevant - just ask those half-monkeys who died in that cave in Africa after their betters left.
You DO know people still live in Africa, right?
Not in the cave where the humans too scared to leave stayed. And even if their descendants would still be living there, they would be utterly irrelevant by now - little more than an afterthought.
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Old September 1 2013, 11:42 PM   #615
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Of course we can speculate
Not without making some fundamental assumptions what paths humanity will take to GET there. You can extrapolate all kinds of possibilities based on those starting assumptions, but that won't tell you whether or not those assumptions are justified.

And it will not be one society, but many of them, with different values.
And a relatively small group of people belonging to any of them will be enough to launch the kind of interstellar probes RAMA talked about. Enough to launch even more - and that's assuming no technologies not predicted today.
Strictly speaking, we've ALREADY launched two interstellar probes out of the solar system. It's the very specific scenario RAMA talks about that is unlikely, as it seeks to superimpose 20th century assumptions about technology on a speculative future humanity that will not be limited by -- or even related to -- 20th century culture OR technology.

Basically, it's like Jules Verne trying to extrapolate what a 21st century space program would look like. Apart from the generalities (astronauts land on the moon at some point), his best guesses weren't even close, and had no chance of being so because there was too much about the future that 19th century writers couldn't have even BEGUN to predict.

Yes, it would be symbolic, in large part; it will return information to you/your descendants.
Assuming it returns anything at all. We have never built anything designed to function over that long of a time scale, and even if we did, such a technology is impossible to test.

BTW, launching RAMA's probes will not be a generations-long undertaking. FAR from it.
Unless somebody discovers a working FTL drive or a power/fuel source a thousand times more powerful than anything we have conceived of at the moment, it will.

But that's kinda my point. If we had such a propulsion system, we probably wouldn't use it for "star seed" projects or interstellar colonization. The technology ITSELF would be such a game changer that the new social/political paradigm that comes with it would govern a different set of uses than we would imagine.

You DO know people still live in Africa, right?
Not in the cave where the humans too scared to leave stayed.
Seeing how ancient Africans never actually LIVED in caves, that sort of goes without saying.

And even if their descendants would still be living there, they would be utterly irrelevant by now
To the extent that any particular human being anywhere could be called "relevant."
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