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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old August 24 2013, 05:18 PM   #91
Alidar Jarok
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Re: Moffat Talks 13th, sorry, 12th Doctor

ITL wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
11 to Clara on day 2: "Regeneration 101: This is how you make fishsticks and custard."
[fake outrage]IT'S FISH FINGERS! NOT FISH STICKS! EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE THE SAME THING! GAH![/fake outrage]

Well, one of them makes you a gay fish.
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Old August 24 2013, 06:19 PM   #92
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Re: Moffat Talks 13th, sorry, 12th Doctor

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
ITL wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
11 to Clara on day 2: "Regeneration 101: This is how you make fishsticks and custard."
[fake outrage]IT'S FISH FINGERS! NOT FISH STICKS! EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE THE SAME THING! GAH![/fake outrage]

Well, one of them makes you a gay fish.
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Old August 24 2013, 06:28 PM   #93
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Re: Moffat Talks 13th, sorry, 12th Doctor

Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
Frances Barber played [Madame Kovarian] as someone who had a VERY personal grudge against the Doctor. The sheer venom in her voice speaking to him almost made me think she was somehow a post-Library River who'd gone psychotic and essentially (with the Silence's help) created herself. (And boy, wouldn't that have put Amy's execution of her in Wedding in a different light.) I hope somebody gets around to explaining who she is, and what the Doctor did to her/will do to her to make her so desperately hate him.
I'm surprised she hasn't returned, since she's still alive. It was an alternate Amy who executed an alternate Kovarian for things that prime Amy experienced at the hands of prime Kovarian, which right there tells you how conceptually flawed "The Wedding of River Song" was.
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Old August 24 2013, 06:39 PM   #94
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Re: Moffat Talks 13th, sorry, 12th Doctor

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I'm surprised she hasn't returned, since she's still alive. It was an alternate Amy who executed an alternate Kovarian for things that prime Amy experienced at the hands of prime Kovarian, which right there tells you how conceptually flawed "The Wedding of River Song" was.
I think that goes under Moffat's "Things the General Audience won't think about" excuse, which he used to explain why all the ways of rescuing Amy & Rory that didn't involve the Doctor physically going to New York don't count.
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Old August 25 2013, 08:35 AM   #95
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Re: Moffat Talks 13th, sorry, 12th Doctor

What is the flaw?
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Old August 25 2013, 02:02 PM   #96
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Re: Moffat Talks 13th, sorry, 12th Doctor

Konata Izumi wrote: View Post
What is the flaw?
The conceptual flaw in "The Wedding of River Song" is, much like Star Trek: The Next Generation's "Yesterday's Enterprise," nothing that happens in the story ultimately matters. There's all this sturm und drang in a timeline that, in the end, unhappens because of itself. It looks pretty, but the episode wastes time on elements that have no bearing on the resolution. It probably needed a rethink from the ground up. Or, it needed Moffat to give a laundry list of things that needed to happen to another writer to execute.
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Old August 25 2013, 02:11 PM   #97
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Re: Moffat Talks 13th, sorry, 12th Doctor

Regardless of flaws in execution, I like Wedding simply because it is the first modern-era finale that moved away from the "save the earth/universe/timeline" formula that RTD started.
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Old August 25 2013, 02:47 PM   #98
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Re: Moffat Talks 13th, sorry, 12th Doctor

intrinsical wrote: View Post
Regardless of flaws in execution, I like Wedding simply because it is the first modern-era finale that moved away from the "save the earth/universe/timeline" formula that RTD started.
But they did save the timeline and the universe as well.
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Old August 25 2013, 04:57 PM   #99
Konata Izumi
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Re: Moffat Talks 13th, sorry, 12th Doctor

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
Konata Izumi wrote: View Post
What is the flaw?
The conceptual flaw in "The Wedding of River Song" is, much like Star Trek: The Next Generation's "Yesterday's Enterprise," nothing that happens in the story ultimately matters. There's all this sturm und drang in a timeline that, in the end, unhappens because of itself. It looks pretty, but the episode wastes time on elements that have no bearing on the resolution. It probably needed a rethink from the ground up. Or, it needed Moffat to give a laundry list of things that needed to happen to another writer to execute.
The killing matters to Amy though, as she remembers everything relevant to it in both realities. The unhappening just makes it feel a bit less evil.

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Old August 25 2013, 05:15 PM   #100
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Re: Moffat Talks 13th, sorry, 12th Doctor

Konata Izumi wrote: View Post
The killing matters to Amy though, as she remembers everything relevant to it in both realities. The unhappening just makes it feel a bit less evil.
I get where you're coming from.

Amy (and the audience) gets the emotional satisfaction that comes from Amy murdering Madame Kovarian, but without the guilt since it didn't really happen and no one actually died.

But that's a problem. It's a cheat resolution in the classic Marvel Comics sense. The story does something that looks significant, but then it wipes it away and everything is back to normal. I don't know if Moffat designed the story deliberately so that ultimately Amy is stainless, but it takes something away from the story when it lacks the conviction to actually grapple with its own implications.
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Old August 25 2013, 05:18 PM   #101
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Re: Moffat Talks 13th, sorry, 12th Doctor

I don't think Amy was stainless though, from her perspective it did happen. she remembers killing her, so from Amy's perspective the guilt is very real. She mivght be able to rationally tell herself it didn't happen, and she might even beleive that on occasion, but if nothing else she knows that in certain circumstances she's capable of cold blooded murder. I don't think that's something someone just "gets over" because it didn't really happen.
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Old August 25 2013, 05:20 PM   #102
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Re: Moffat Talks 13th, sorry, 12th Doctor

The Series 6 finale is underwhelming and unmemorable, this is only further highlighted by Series 5 and 7 having the best of the modern finales.
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Old August 25 2013, 05:30 PM   #103
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Re: Moffat Talks 13th, sorry, 12th Doctor

Actually, I think Series 4 had the final modern finale, followed by the first series, and then MAYBE the fifth series, depending my moods on End of Time at a given time.
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Old August 25 2013, 05:47 PM   #104
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Re: Moffat Talks 13th, sorry, 12th Doctor

The meaningless spectacle though, I always liked how it fits with the rest of the series, how in the first episode things are small and very grave, in the middle one things escalate but there is a bit more hope, and in the last one, things have escalated so far and there is no meaning.

I don't know how you can keep that, but add more drama to the single episode. I think it's actually an episode better remembered than actually watched. But I think that about anything?

Also going back to where this started, Kovarian's just some jihad person. She's just told things.
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Old August 25 2013, 06:00 PM   #105
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Re: Moffat Talks 13th, sorry, 12th Doctor

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
Konata Izumi wrote: View Post
The killing matters to Amy though, as she remembers everything relevant to it in both realities. The unhappening just makes it feel a bit less evil.
I get where you're coming from.

Amy (and the audience) gets the emotional satisfaction that comes from Amy murdering Madame Kovarian, but without the guilt since it didn't really happen and no one actually died.

But that's a problem. It's a cheat resolution in the classic Marvel Comics sense. The story does something that looks significant, but then it wipes it away and everything is back to normal. I don't know if Moffat designed the story deliberately so that ultimately Amy is stainless, but it takes something away from the story when it lacks the conviction to actually grapple with its own implications.
First, Amy didn't kill Kovarian, the Silence did with their booby-trapped eyepatches. Amy just fixed Kovarians', since it fell off.

Secondly, at the time, Amy only remembered bits of the "real" timeline. But in the episode, she was fighting the Silence and Kovarian for a while. Kovarian was the enemy.

That Amy remembered that aborted timeline is unfortunate, but it did not happen. What she has to realize, if she hasn't yet, is that it was part of that reality and part of her war.
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