RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,643
Posts: 5,427,926
Members: 24,811
Currently online: 408
Newest member: Damix

TrekToday headlines

Trek Messenger Bag
By: T'Bonz on Sep 18

Star Trek Live In Concert In Australia
By: T'Bonz on Sep 18

IDW Publishing December Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Sep 17

September Loot Crate Features Trek Surprise
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

USS Enterprise Miniature Out For Refit
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Comic Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Trek 3 Shooting Next Spring?
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Tech

Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 23 2013, 09:41 AM   #121
Mario de Monti
Captain
 
Mario de Monti's Avatar
 
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

That´s a really interesting thought Meditate on this I will
__________________
"Do you give me attitude, Spock?" - "I´m expressing multiple attitudes simultaneously, Sir. To which are you referring?"
Mario de Monti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 23 2013, 10:26 AM   #122
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

^^ Which thought? That Andrew Probert's genuine Enterprise-C does not belong to the Ambassador Class or that ILM may have assumed erroneously that they were doing pre-production work for a prequel?

The problem: The whole "Tauntaun lizard" thing had been abundantly illustrated in Ralph McQuarrie's pre-production work, hadn't escaped the watchful eyes of fans, and required an inevitable and honest answer.

IIRC the possibility that ILM did pre-production work assuming ST III would be a prequel, is a conjectural theory. Should it turn out to be correct, it would reveal a serious lack of communication (and professionalism) between Paramount Pictures and ILM at the expense of those responsible. Not necessarily the kind of stuff you want to publish, but after 30 years maybe those involved could look back and consider the miscommunication to be an anecdote worth telling (and I'd be listening with interest, of course ).

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 23 2013, 03:07 PM   #123
Praetor
Vice Admiral
 
Praetor's Avatar
 
Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

It's entirely possible the effect was more subtle - the designers could have been operating with a slightly retro mindset. But surely they were going by the script which stated Excelsior was new, fast, and generally awesomer, and Oberth was a midsize science ship?
__________________
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q
Praetor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 23 2013, 04:58 PM   #124
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Timo wrote: View Post
And how could we tell?
There would be no reason for their uniforms to change, as the Ent-C crew were the cause of the future timeline change, not the result of it.

Personally, I'm all against Probert's design being the one for the E-C, but I have nothing against it being the definite Ambassador of which the Horatio would be the only known onscreen (if posthumous) representative...

...Except that it's a bit too complicated even to my tastes!
And I have nothing against Probert's ship being another vessel class, if we saw the actual ship on screen. But not for the Ambassador class.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
IIRC the production of ST III was kept a secret. I wonder (now that's a question for ILM) how much ILM knew about the premise of the film when they started designing starship proposals. Spock had died at the end of ST II, so inevitably "The Search for Spock" must have sounded as if Paramount Pictures wanted to shoot a prequel!

Not only would this explain the distinctive archaic pre-TOS look (IMHO) of the Excelsior prototypes, but also the rather drastic design change that resulted in the USS Excelsior as seen on screen. I have no problems imagining Leonard Nimoy saying "Sorry guys for keeping you in the dark, but we are shooting a sequel, not a prequel".

Apparently one design study wasn't altered - that of the USS Grissom...
Wow. No offense Robert, but this is quite the height of supposition on your part, even more than normal. I've never heard that the production for STIII was a secret, other than the usual secrecy for any new production of anything. And I've certainly never heard the idea that anyone thought STIII would be a prequel, simply based on the name of the film. And as far as those study models are concerned, I don't see a single one that looks less advanced than the TOS Enterprise.

The original intention of creating the Excelsior in the first place was that it was going to eventually be Kirk's new ship, post-TMP Enterprise. So it's highly unlikely that ILM thought they were making ship designs for a pre-TOS period.
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin

Last edited by Dukhat; August 23 2013 at 05:18 PM.
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 23 2013, 06:49 PM   #125
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Wow. No offense Robert, but this is quite the height of supposition on your part, even more than normal. I've never heard that the production for STIII was a secret, other than the usual secrecy for any new production of anything.
Not the production, of course, but what the story was about!

I still remember vividly how Eric Stilwell (writer of "Yesterday's Enterprise" and maybe that brings us full circle? ) speculated together with many others whether Spock would be ressurected or not, and that was most definitely a big production secret and consequently the story, too. (Eric Stilwell suggested we should pay attention to the mark designation on the photorp casing and compare it with the corresponding passage from The New Testament. He was really on to something ).

I also remember how a lot of folks were putting pictures of director Leonard Nimoy under a magnifying glass to look for makeup residue at his ears. It was crazy.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 23 2013, 09:19 PM   #126
Tomalak
Vice Admiral
 
Tomalak's Avatar
 
Location: Liverpool
View Tomalak's Twitter Profile
Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Sorry, but it's bonkers to suggest ILM were designing "retro" ships to make fans think they were filming a prequel. The Excelsior at least was always intended to be a bigger, faster, sleeker, longer, more imposing take on the Enterprise. Nilo Rodis recalled:

The "Excelsior" had to be brilliant, and it had to steal thunder from the Enterprise.
Bill George took the view of:

OK, what would the "Enterprise" look like if the Japanese designed it?" That was the basis of what I came up with for the "Excelsior".
It's a movie. Everything's budgeted. You don't waste money on some elaborate subterfuge if you have no intention of using the finished work, so the idea of decoy TOS-like study models is incredibly far-fetched (and as Dukhat says, they don't look remotely retro anyway). Especially given that in the pre-internet days, you'd have to be a very dedicated fan to even hear about study models. And frankly, it doesn't matter if a handful of geeks find out the plot of the story, when you're ultimately going to call the film "The Search for Spock". Bit of a give-away there I think.

There's a decent summary of the design process here.
__________________
She bought her first new car and you hit her with a drunk driver. What, is that supposed to be funny?
Tomalak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 23 2013, 10:27 PM   #127
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Sorry, but it's bonkers to suggest ILM were designing "retro" ships to make fans think they were filming a prequel.
Huuh?!?...Who gave you that idea? I was merely speculating that the guys at ILM may have been designing models for what they thought would be a prequel until Nimoy and Bennett told them it would be a sequel.

And the title "The Search For Spock" was ambiguous at the time. Don't take my word for it, check out the corresponding issues of Starlog, Fantastic Films, Cinefantastique etc.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 23 2013, 10:47 PM   #128
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

So these folks would be anticipating the actual, final orders from the people who wanted these study models? How much lead time would they need? Have we ever seen or heard of a study model of any level of detail built before a specific and detailed order for it is given? (Unique hobby models like the one that became the Pasteur are a rather different matter!)

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 23 2013, 11:23 PM   #129
Tomalak
Vice Admiral
 
Tomalak's Avatar
 
Location: Liverpool
View Tomalak's Twitter Profile
Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Tomalak wrote: View Post
Sorry, but it's bonkers to suggest ILM were designing "retro" ships to make fans think they were filming a prequel.
Huuh?!?...Who gave you that idea? I was merely speculating that the guys at ILM may have been designing models for what they thought would be a prequel until Nimoy and Bennett told them it would be a sequel.
Mate, these guys aren't sitting around waiting for the phone to ring from Harve Bennett. They are highly unlikely to have started work before the deal was in place and they had been told what they had to design.

I also don't get where this whole prequel idea comes from. Maybe that was a rumour going around in fan circles at the time? ILM would have been given a script, or at least a list of stuff they needed to design: spacedock, a futuristic starship, a new Klingon ship, a merchant ship and a Federation science ship.

Given those parameters, I don't see why you think they might have taken it upon themselves to design original series era stuff. It's just wild speculation, with absolutely no evidence, which fits in with your idea that the Grissom was an old ship.
__________________
She bought her first new car and you hit her with a drunk driver. What, is that supposed to be funny?
Tomalak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 24 2013, 01:07 AM   #130
Reverend
Rear Admiral
 
Reverend's Avatar
 
Location: UK
Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Just to be clear, I don't think Grissom is an older design based on some notion about STIII originally being a prequel (I'm pretty sure it was STVI that was at one point headed in that direction, not III) I just think it's a fun idea for a retcon that rather neatly explains some of oddities regarding that class.
Reverend is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 24 2013, 01:13 AM   #131
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Huuh?!?...Who gave you that idea? I was merely speculating that the guys at ILM may have been designing models for what they thought would be a prequel until Nimoy and Bennett told them it would be a sequel.
What? Why on Earth would anyone design something and then spend money to build study models before they were told what they were supposed to design?

Tomalak is right; it sounds more like you're just trying to come up with any kind of validation about your pet theory for the Oberth, to the point that now you're just making stuff up. Well you know what? You're welcome to believe anything you want about the Oberth, and to make up whatever convoluted logic you can think of if it makes you sleep better at night. Just don't expect the rest of us to accept these suppositions.

And the title "The Search For Spock" was ambiguous at the time. Don't take my word for it, check out the corresponding issues of Starlog, Fantastic Films, Cinefantastique etc.
Ambiguous? Not really. I remember rumors that Spock would come back to life quite before I saw the film.
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin

Last edited by Dukhat; August 24 2013 at 01:44 AM.
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 24 2013, 07:00 PM   #132
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Reverend wrote: View Post
Just to be clear, I don't think Grissom is an older design based on some notion about STIII originally being a prequel (I'm pretty sure it was STVI that was at one point headed in that direction, not III) I just think it's a fun idea for a retcon that rather neatly explains some of oddities regarding that class.
Exactly. When I wrote the essential analysis one year ago, that was the inspiration, and it's only during the discussion in this thread I gathered further inspiration on behalf of that idea.

@ Tomalak & Dukhat

I think the Excelsior prototypes have a noticable retro-look which is rather the total opposite of what the final design looked like on film. And an NCC registry beginning with "14"?

ILM was a third-party-contractor, so if you want to keep the story a secret, you got to make sure that it's not leaking at the end where you don't have control.

And last but not least, the "Tauntaun lizard" is a good example that the communication between the people involved in such a blockbuster production is not necessarily as optimal as some of us outsiders do assume or want to believe.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 24 2013, 07:27 PM   #133
The_Beef
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Praetor wrote: View Post
It's entirely possible the effect was more subtle - the designers could have been operating with a slightly retro mindset. But surely they were going by the script which stated Excelsior was new, fast, and generally awesomer, and Oberth was a midsize science ship?
Just re-watched STIII, and as much as I want to see the Oberth as an older design, I don't think that was production intent. The movie tries to sell this idea that the Enterprise is outdated now. The Excelsior gets all the attention there, but I suspect they made the Grissom as a more streamlined design similar to the Excelsior specifically to make the Enterprise look like an old relic in a Starfleet that was leaving it behind.
The_Beef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 24 2013, 10:00 PM   #134
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

The main attribute of the Grissom would be unrelated to her apparent age, familial relations or such: she was simply expected to look unlike a starship so that she could be an all-new thing, a helpless survey ship that can trivially be destroyed by a Klingon ship that in turn stands no chance against the Enterprise. This would not have been easily achieved by creating a ship with any commonality with the starship designs already seen in the movies - but OTOH the Federation identity needed to be made clear so a saucer plus nacelles were called for nevertheless.

So the study models were made, and the Excelsior evolved towards as traditional a starship as possible, while the Grissom supposedly fluctuated from oddball shape to oddball shape. But study models of the latter are mere rumors at this time, alas...

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 24 2013, 11:13 PM   #135
Reverend
Rear Admiral
 
Reverend's Avatar
 
Location: UK
Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

I've always thought the design of the Grissom intentionally meant to look like a stable-mate of the Excelsior and therefore a modern design. Makes sense from a story telling POV as it's only logical that SF would send the most advanced science vessel available to them to survey Genesis. I suspect the low reg was inspired by the FJ numbering system where the scout classes get three digit reg while the heavy cruisers get four.

While at the time that made sense, the way things have been developed since means that is no longer the case.
Hence this: -

I really don't think anyone needs to find more of a reason to speculate. It's just for fun after all, nobody's going to change canon with this idea.
Reverend is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
uss grissom, uss tsiolkovsky, uss valiant

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:41 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.