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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old August 17 2013, 02:10 AM   #136
Harvey
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Re: Fact-Checking Inside Star Trek: The Real Story

Thanks!
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Old August 17 2013, 02:51 AM   #137
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Re: Fact-Checking Inside Star Trek: The Real Story

The text on that page in The Art of Star Trek reads:
Though committed to the idealism of the twenty-third century, Gene Roddenberry was not blind to the financial realities of the twentieth. Realizing the demand among viewers for merchandise from the STAR TREK universe, Roddenberry worked with William Ware Theiss to create a symbol of Vulcan philosophy, which could also be sold to fans. These sketches by Theiss show the development of two possible STAR TREK medallions which culminated in the IDIC--an acronym for Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. The IDIC was first worn by Spock in the episode "Is There in Truth No Beauty?" and has since been seen as a recurring Vulcan symbol in current STAR TREK productions.
So I think the most likely scenario is that Theiss designed the medallion under Roddenberry's guidance -- the standard relationship between art staffer and showrunner where the showrunner tells the artist what he's looking for, the artist comes up with various suggestions, the showrunner picks the elements he likes, and back and forth until a final design is reached.

Then again, that first pencil sketch (actually the last drawing on the TAoST page) seems to be in a cruder hand than one would expect of Theiss, and I'm not sure the handwriting matches Theiss's in the costume sketches reproduced elsewhere in the book. So that initial sketch could've been Roddenberry's. But the caption includes it among the "sketches by Theiss." Harvey, do you have copies of any documents with Roddenberry's handwriting on them for comparison purposes?

Anyway, I suppose I would credit it to Roddenberry and Theiss together, with the proviso that GR's involvement may have been no greater than his input into the design of the Enterprise or any of its sets, costumes, props, etc. Which is to say, he would've always had input and approval into the designs, but he usually isn't given credit for it.
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Old August 17 2013, 03:01 AM   #138
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Re: Fact-Checking Inside Star Trek: The Real Story

Thanks, Christopher.

I don't believe I have any samples of Roddenberry's handwriting. Most of my collection of memos consists of my own transcriptions of documents, not photocopies (which are costly and only allowed for some items at UCLA).
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Old August 17 2013, 04:15 AM   #139
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Re: Fact-Checking Inside Star Trek: The Real Story

Here's a sample of GR's handwriting I found:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XNPD380IpB...400/P279_6.jpg

This memo is reproduced on p. 148 of Inside Star Trek, and the caption refers to "Roddenberry's handwritten annotations." I actually found it before, but I saw the memo was from Justman so I assumed it was his handwriting. But then I remembered it was in IST, so I double-checked, and voila.

I'm no handwriting analyst, but to my eye they look like they're definitely the same hand. The cursive f and t are are similar in both, and the printed "an" in the standalone "man" in the IDIC sketch looks like that in "planet" in the middle line of the memo's margin notes. Plus they're both in a cramped and messy hand, while the Theiss handwriting samples reproduced in TAoST are larger and cleaner. So my entirely non-expert opinion is that the rough IDIC sketch, despite being credited to Theiss in TAoST, is actually by Roddenberry.

So that would mean Roddenberry came up with the basic triangle-and-circle idea, and Theiss refined it under his supervision.
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Old August 17 2013, 09:14 AM   #140
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Re: Fact-Checking Inside Star Trek: The Real Story

Sir Rhosis wrote: View Post
Well, since I've been scouring the net for FP material, I stumbled across this thread on an SF related board. This gentlemen knows more (and owns more behind-the-scenes material) than anyone I've ran across. Even posted a draft of the script. Hope it is okay to link. The photos and script run from about pages 4-10, for those who don't want to wade through all the posts.

http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/viewtop...forum=allscifi

Sir Rhosis
You might notice a familiar name in that thread.
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Old August 17 2013, 05:40 PM   #141
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Re: Fact-Checking Inside Star Trek: The Real Story

^^I did.
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Old August 17 2013, 06:51 PM   #142
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Re: Fact-Checking Inside Star Trek: The Real Story

For what it's worth, The Making of Star Trek reproduces a Roddenberry memo to Matt Jefferies (on page 167):


To: Matt Jefferies
Date: December 12, 1966
From: Gene Roddenberry
Re: SPACE SYMBOLS

Dear Matt:

Would like to see a greater use of symbols, some design of significant form and color, used to identify and tie together the particular planet cultures, alien vessels, other Earth vessels, organizations, etc.

As always, would appreciate you coordinating with costume, property, etc.

A handy example: In "Return of the Archons," the law-givers and the Society of Landru could have been characterized by a symbol, say an unusual triangle-circle, which could have then given us unity by allowing it to appear on their rugs, possibly on their staffs, certainly on the walls of Landru's palace. As we discovered in the past, this trick has a way of unifying things, gives it a sense of greater reality, gives the director things to play to, and furnishes guide posts for the audience. For example, an upcoming one is the other vessel in "Space Seed." Can we do anything here?

Gene Roddenberry


So I think it's very likely that Roddenberry had this particular "unusual triangle-circle used to identify and tie together a particular planet's culture" bee in his bonnet for a couple of years before it finally got realized in "Is There in Truth No Beauty?" It's likely that the design of the IDIC piece was a shared, team effort between Roddenberry and Bill Theiss.
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Old August 24 2013, 01:25 AM   #143
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Re: Fact-Checking Inside Star Trek: The Real Story

Finally finished my entry on the IDIC -- with more than a healthy portion of help from everyone here.

http://startrekfactcheck.blogspot.co...hilosophy.html
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Old August 24 2013, 01:32 AM   #144
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Re: Fact-Checking Inside Star Trek: The Real Story

I repeat myself, but great work, as always, Harvey.

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Old August 24 2013, 01:34 AM   #145
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Re: Fact-Checking Inside Star Trek: The Real Story

Thank you.

Despite percolating for weeks, this one was sort of rushed, so if any errors pop out to anyone, please let me know.
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Old August 24 2013, 01:37 AM   #146
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Re: Fact-Checking Inside Star Trek: The Real Story

Cool. I had no idea GR had tried to get the medallion into the series earlier. I must admit the initial pitch for getting the medallion on air---as a gift from the junior officers---might have been a neat little character moment.
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Old August 24 2013, 04:45 AM   #147
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Re: Fact-Checking Inside Star Trek: The Real Story

Harvey:

I think you might have an opportunity to answer a question some people have.

Folks sometimes wonder exactly what the point of contention was regarding the IDIC dialogue that Roddenberry wanted inserted. Was it pages and pages of stuff? Was it just a couple of lines? How much did it actually bog down the script? The Final Draft, dated July 16, 1968 had indeed been a bit longer than what was finally shot, but I think Roddenberry was too good a scriptwriter to get too bogged down in something that isn't going to further the plot much--even if it might have been somewhat self-serving. Folks can judge how far overboard the IDIC scene might have been. (The scene is the same dinner scene with Doctor Jones.)

********

Busy with the search for expressing her thoughts, Miranda's
hand touches the medallion pinned to Spock's breast.
She touches it carefully, as though identifying it.
McCoy sees the fleeting gesture her hand makes on contact
with the medallion. He is very intent on her action.

Spock pulls back, afraid he may have scratched her.

SPOCK

Forgive me. I forget that dress
uniforms can injure.

MIRANDA

No, I was merely looking at your
Vulcan IDIC, Mister Spock.
(looks up,
curiously)
Is it a reminder that as a Vulcan
you could mind-meld with the
Medeusan much more effectively
than I could?
(to the others,
but smiling)
It would be most difficult for a
Vulcan to see a mere human take
on this exciting a challenge.

McCOY
(to Spock)

Interesting question. It is a
fact that you rarely do wear the
IDIC.

KIRK

I doubt that Mister Spock would
don the most revered of all Vulcan
symbols merely to annoy a guest,
Dr. Jones.

SPOCK
(to Miranda)

In fact, I wear it this evening
to honor you, Doctor.

MIRANDA

Indeed?

SPOCK
(nods)

Indeed. Perhaps even with those
years on Vulcan, you missed the
true symbology.
(indicates
medallion)

The triangle and the circle...
...different shapes, materials,
textures...represent any two
diverse things which come
together to create here...truth
or beauty.
(indicating the
parts, looks up)
For example, Doctor Miranda Jones
who combined herself and the
disciplines of my race, to
become greater than the sum of
both.

Kirk can see Miranda isn't fully sold on Spock's intentions
...he changes the subject.

KIRK

Very interesting, I might even
say...fascinating.

*********

(At this point the scene picks up as aired.)
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Old August 24 2013, 04:52 PM   #148
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Re: Fact-Checking Inside Star Trek: The Real Story

I will add that sometime this weekend. Thanks!

(I must profess that I am glad that "symbology" didn't make the final cut. I assume this is something de Forest Research would have caught, but their research report for the episode isn't on file at UCLA.)

By the way, what is the date on those pages?
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Old August 24 2013, 07:29 PM   #149
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Re: Fact-Checking Inside Star Trek: The Real Story

Harvey wrote: View Post
I will add that sometime this weekend. Thanks!

(I must profess that I am glad that "symbology" didn't make the final cut. I assume this is something de Forest Research would have caught, but their research report for the episode isn't on file at UCLA.)

By the way, what is the date on those pages?
Harvey:

The pages for this revised Scene 25 are dated 7/16/68. FYI: This is the version of the script from Lincoln Enterprises.

You're right about the symbology. For what it's worth, my hunch is that de Forest's feedback (if it ever surfaces) will probably be found to predate these 11th hour revisions. But if nothing else, Roddenberry seems to have been consistent in his usage of the term--even if symbolism is probably the more accurate term.
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Old August 24 2013, 07:52 PM   #150
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Re: Fact-Checking Inside Star Trek: The Real Story

Those really were eleventh hour changes then; 'Is There In Truth No Beauty' began shooting on that morning: July 16, 1968. Or at least, it was scheduled to begin shooting at that time; the controversy wasted the whole morning.

The research report from de Forest Research almost certainly didn't address these changes, then. The cost of rushing a research report like that -- in a matter of hours, in the middle of the night -- was simply an expense the production didn't need.
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