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Old August 24 2013, 11:31 AM   #46
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Enterprise, Star Trek Falling On It's Own Bat'Leth!

Melakon wrote: View Post
It didn't help that the first contact with Klingons occurred in the very first episode, and was about 50 years earlier than had been suggested in the other shows. Then that the first contact with them didn't trigger all the conflict we'd been led to believe.
The idea that Klingon first contact came 50 years prior to TOS was from a line in the "Day of the Dove" script, which never made it to air. It somehow found it's way into the 1993 Star Trek Chronology, despite being contradicted on-screen by Picard's comment in "First Contact" that Klingon first contact was "centuries ago". But then Picard said that first contact was a disaster which led to decades of war which led to the decision to surveil aliens before making contact, none of which happened in "Broken Bow"...
Then subspace radio shows up before the USS Horizon leaves "The Book" at Sigma Iotia II in 2168, which happened before subspace radio existed.
I'm pretty sure the exact date is conjecture from the Chronology again. "The book" showed up as set decoration on the ECS Horizon in "Fortunate Son" - perhaps they'd already been there decades earlier and before subspace radio was invented?
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Old August 24 2013, 03:30 PM   #47
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Re: Enterprise, Star Trek Falling On It's Own Bat'Leth!

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No... Enterprise will always be the worst. DS9, TNG, VOY, TOS, ENT in that order. Honestly what kept TOS in 3rd for me all these years were the movies more than the series itself. But... I admit I watch Voyager more than the six movies.... so yeah, it deserves a promotion.
I believe you have TOS listed as fourth on your list, lol
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Old August 24 2013, 04:59 PM   #48
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Re: Enterprise, Star Trek Falling On It's Own Bat'Leth!

I gave up on Enterprise during its original run (though, honestly, that had way more to do with me being busy with night classes during its weekly broadcast than anything else, this was before I had anything like a DVR). I bought TOS (still the best of the shows, I have come to realize) and DS9 (the best of the spinoffs, and different enough to avoid direct comparisons anyway) on DVD as they were released and have been watching them regularly ever since.

Earlier this year I wanted to get another series so I didn't end up watching TOS and DS9 to death (likely still a possibility, though). Voyager was never a contender (sorry, fans, half the cast annoys me and chief among them is Seven of Nine, so, that was never going to work out). At first I was leaning towards TNG but... yikes. I agree with whoever it was that said it has not held up at all. It has a handful of standout episodes, most of which it seems are clustered within only one of its seven broadcast seasons (the third, to erase all doubt) but the average TNG episode is boring enough to put me right to sleep.

So I went with Enterprise and have been pretty pleasantly surprised. It's not without its flaws but I'd say it's much better than it has been made out to be, including in my own estimation in many years. I'd rank it third, after TOS and DS9 and ahead of Voyager and TNG. I do still like the movie "First Contact", though.
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Old August 24 2013, 05:00 PM   #49
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Re: Enterprise, Star Trek Falling On It's Own Bat'Leth!

I think TOS contradicts itself on subspace radio. The Horizon didn't have it yet the treaty that ended the Romulan War was negotiated over subspace radio. Both occurred around the same time. Though I suppose that if the Horizon was a civilian vessel (I don't recall if the designation USS was used in TOS: APotA)then they might not have had subspace radio as that may have been purely military tech at that time.

I'm not sure about this but I think the book seen on Enterprise had a slightly different title than the one seen in A Piece of the Action.

- edit - Just checked Memory Alpha and the books do have different titles. The ENT one says Chicago Gangs while the TOS one is Chicago Mobs. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Chicago_Gangs
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Old August 24 2013, 06:20 PM   #50
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Re: Enterprise, Star Trek Falling On It's Own Bat'Leth!

The more I read about it, the more it's clear that the studio really did fuck up this series. They rushed it into production to keep it's cash cow going and interfered at various times, like changing the ending of Dear Doctor. I've read that supposedly B and B wanted to set the first half of the season on Earth...that would have been a welcome change. But it turned out to be the same old shit.

I'm not letting Berman and Braga off the hook. One person wrote it best a couple of years ago. In 2001, you had shows like 24 and Alias debut. Those shows did innovative things while Enterprise was still stuck in a 1980s way of doing television.
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Old August 24 2013, 06:41 PM   #51
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Re: Enterprise, Star Trek Falling On It's Own Bat'Leth!

The way you succeed in anything, business, politics, anything, is by keeping your base and adding to it. ENT alienated hared-core fans while failing to attract new ones in significant numbers.

Whose fault? Gotta say the suits. The proof, season 4. The suits had left the building by then, having decided that ENT was dead meat and that they only need enough eps to round out a syndication package. And in that atmosphere of benign neglect, the show flourished creatively. Oh, season 4 had its stinkers, to be sure. But if the entire show had been as good as season 4, it would have gotten seven years.
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Old August 24 2013, 07:05 PM   #52
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Re: Enterprise, Star Trek Falling On It's Own Bat'Leth!

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
It didn't help that the first contact with Klingons occurred in the very first episode, and was about 50 years earlier than had been suggested in the other shows. Then that the first contact with them didn't trigger all the conflict we'd been led to believe.
The idea that Klingon first contact came 50 years prior to TOS was from a line in the "Day of the Dove" script, which never made it to air. It somehow found it's way into the 1993 Star Trek Chronology, despite being contradicted on-screen by Picard's comment in "First Contact" that Klingon first contact was "centuries ago". But then Picard said that first contact was a disaster which led to decades of war which led to the decision to surveil aliens before making contact, none of which happened in "Broken Bow"...
Then subspace radio shows up before the USS Horizon leaves "The Book" at Sigma Iotia II in 2168, which happened before subspace radio existed.
I'm pretty sure the exact date is conjecture from the Chronology again. "The book" showed up as set decoration on the ECS Horizon in "Fortunate Son" - perhaps they'd already been there decades earlier and before subspace radio was invented?
A lot of people take their canon from the Chronology, the Encyclopedia and novel adaptations. I used to be one. Then I started checking the episodes. The syndication edits also play havoc with folks recollection of what's in an episode. I had no recollection of a Klingon appearing in "A Private Little War" until recently.
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Old August 24 2013, 10:10 PM   #53
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Re: Enterprise, Star Trek Falling On It's Own Bat'Leth!

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
It didn't help that the first contact with Klingons occurred in the very first episode, and was about 50 years earlier than had been suggested in the other shows. Then that the first contact with them didn't trigger all the conflict we'd been led to believe.
The idea that Klingon first contact came 50 years prior to TOS was from a line in the "Day of the Dove" script, which never made it to air. It somehow found it's way into the 1993 Star Trek Chronology, despite being contradicted on-screen by Picard's comment in "First Contact" that Klingon first contact was "centuries ago". But then Picard said that first contact was a disaster which led to decades of war which led to the decision to surveil aliens before making contact, none of which happened in "Broken Bow"...
I still think ENT's take on Klingon first contact fits perfectly fine with what we were told in "First Contact." Because of humanity, the Klingons infected themselves with a super-virus that might have killed their entire species and permanently disfigured a large number of them. I'd say that's plenty of cause for distrust and animosity leading to decades of conflict.
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Old August 24 2013, 10:29 PM   #54
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Re: Enterprise, Star Trek Falling On It's Own Bat'Leth!

Yes, I may just be misinterpreting statements made in films or other episodes. It seemed to me the troublesome first contact with Klingons previously mentioned meant an immediate full scale war.
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Old August 24 2013, 10:34 PM   #55
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Re: Enterprise, Star Trek Falling On It's Own Bat'Leth!

Skywalker wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
It didn't help that the first contact with Klingons occurred in the very first episode, and was about 50 years earlier than had been suggested in the other shows. Then that the first contact with them didn't trigger all the conflict we'd been led to believe.
The idea that Klingon first contact came 50 years prior to TOS was from a line in the "Day of the Dove" script, which never made it to air. It somehow found it's way into the 1993 Star Trek Chronology, despite being contradicted on-screen by Picard's comment in "First Contact" that Klingon first contact was "centuries ago". But then Picard said that first contact was a disaster which led to decades of war which led to the decision to surveil aliens before making contact, none of which happened in "Broken Bow"...
I still think ENT's take on Klingon first contact fits perfectly fine with what we were told in "First Contact." Because of humanity, the Klingons infected themselves with a super-virus that might have killed their entire species and permanently disfigured a large number of them. I'd say that's plenty of cause for distrust and animosity leading to decades of conflict.
That was a disaster. Pretty much every contact between the Klingons and the humans in the 22nd Century went badly. That probably didn't lead to the Klingons being too friendly with the UFP either.

Of course who to say if it was human or even Federation first contact with the Klingons Picard was talking about. The origins of the surveillance, then contact rule might be a Vulcan concept that carried over into the Federation. The centuries of war might have been a Vulcan vs Klingon conflict. Enterprise and ST: First Contact would seem to support the idea the Vulcans liked to use surveillance when encountering new species.
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Old August 24 2013, 10:47 PM   #56
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Re: Enterprise, Star Trek Falling On It's Own Bat'Leth!

The Vulcans in ENT were definitely sneaky little bastards.
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Old August 27 2013, 10:44 PM   #57
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Re: Enterprise, Star Trek Falling On It's Own Bat'Leth!

feek61 wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post

No... Enterprise will always be the worst. DS9, TNG, VOY, TOS, ENT in that order. Honestly what kept TOS in 3rd for me all these years were the movies more than the series itself. But... I admit I watch Voyager more than the six movies.... so yeah, it deserves a promotion.
I believe you have TOS listed as fourth on your list, lol
You'll note I used kept in the past tense. And used the word "promotion" to describe VOY. lol?
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