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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old August 23 2013, 10:16 PM   #16
Hober Mallow
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

Tomalak wrote: View Post
He's right about the way "Spock" is written in Generations. Scotty and Chekov get some truly awful dialogue; Scotty especially is teching the tech in true late-TNG fashion. It's painful to watch. Imagine if they'd make Nimoy say that crap?
"Brought a tear to my eye," was obviously a line meant for McCoy. They just swapped him for Scotty. Paint-by-numbers scriptwriting.

The TNG 24th Century technobabble dialog the writers gave Scotty to say took away the illusion of this being the same crew we just watched in the last six films.

Why everyone thought the first TNG film had to be a mixture of both crews has always escaped me. They ended up doing a terrible disservice to both crews.
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Old August 24 2013, 12:46 AM   #17
Iamnotspock
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
"Brought a tear to my eye," was obviously a line meant for McCoy. They just swapped him for Scotty. Paint-by-numbers scriptwriting.
As is his jokey "Finding retirement a little lonely are we?" He and Kirk were never quite that familiar. Kirk's reply as originally scripted was probably something like, "You know, I'm glad you're a physician. With tact like that, you'd make a lousy psychiatrist."

Then there's Scotty's Spock-like "I do have a theory" and Chekov's inquiries about the medical staff and, "You and you, you've just become nurses...", which is so painfully McCoy. Nimoy opined that there was no specific function for Spock in the original draft, and that the writers could have just swapped his and McCoy's lines for any of the other characters without anyone noticing, but I disagree; they did just that, and it's painful.
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Old August 24 2013, 01:24 AM   #18
bullethead
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

If I could travel back in time, I'd give Michael Jan Friedman's novel Crossover to Moore and Braga for them to adapt, transplanting the "Kirk dies on the Ent-B" opening into the new script, and tell them to have Kirk show up throughout the film though flashbacks and as a mental image/internal voice advising Scotty, Bones, and Spock.

I'd probably have to show them Generations twice first - once on its own and once with their commentary.
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Old August 24 2013, 03:14 AM   #19
Lance
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

The trouble with having Kirk as a holodeck mentor or guide is that Shatner would never have worn it. Yes, Generations was supposed to be a TNG movie not a TOS one, but we already know Shatner's first reaction even to Moore and Braga's script was to tell them that he wasn't gonna do it because "Kirk is not integral to this script". So I can't see him agreeing to be in a movie where Kirk's role was even less integral.

Certainly Nimoy bowed out under similar concerns that his role was basically a glorified cameo at the start of the movie (^as others have already said in this thread, this was a missed opportunity by the writers given that TNG itself had already established that Spock was alive and well in the 24th century, so Spock could have been better integrated into the plot!).

I still think the idea that the Star Trek movie franchise had to have the torch passed from one generation to another was a phony premise. They should have just hit the ground running with the TNG crew and used Star Trek VII as an opportunity to revitalize the movie franchise. Draw a line under TOS with STVI and reboot with Picard and crew. The mish-mash of needing to incorporate elements of both is one of the reasons the movie doesn't quite work.
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Old August 24 2013, 03:58 AM   #20
Kinokima
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

I am sure it would have been fun for the fans to have a better crossover between both generations somehow.
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Old August 24 2013, 06:26 AM   #21
Captain_Amasov
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

I'd have replaced the Klingons with the Romulans. Soran could easily have been making trilithium doomsday torpedoes for them in exchange for the versions he needed, and we'd have probably got both Tomalak featuring and a fight between the Enterprise-D and a D'deridex-class warbird too.

Also, I wouldn't have destroyed the Enterprise-D, I'd still have had her become badly damaged in the fight at the end, where she'd "limp" home segueing into the next film.

One thing I liked about many of the TOS films is that they take place either right after the previous one, or are relatively close to one another. So it would have been the badly damaged Enterprise-D that faces the Borg, and eventually succumbs to her "wounds" towards the end of the second film.
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Old August 24 2013, 06:39 AM   #22
C.E. Evans
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

Lance wrote: View Post
The trouble with having Kirk as a holodeck mentor or guide is that Shatner would never have worn it.
Sure he would have, especially if he got a lot of screen time during the TOS half of the movie.
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Old August 24 2013, 09:55 AM   #23
Mutoid
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

I'd do some of the following:

1. Not have TOS mentioned at all like in the rest of TNG. They didn't need a handover for goodness sake. TNG had been doing fine on its own for years. If you had to do a 'handover' I would just do some mystery that the TOS crew had left behind and perhaps Kirk giving a message to the future captain in 80 years time.
I did like the opening sequence but agree with the people who think Chekov and Scott were the wrong characters given the wrong lines.

2. Lesson the power of the Nexus to have it do time travel, endless life, 3-dimensional travel, fulfill your geatest fantasy, compel you to come back. Its too much, too incredible. Use good writing to get over script problems, don't apply more magic.

3. If you have to have Kirk have a fantasy life, have it with someone we know about with Edith or Miramanee having his brother alive so we can see that it is hurting him to go with Picard.

4. Show the natives Picard wants to save so we could care about them
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Old August 24 2013, 10:58 AM   #24
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

TNG was on air for seven seasons, amassed a big fanbase of its own and was about to go into feature films, surely the series had enough weight behind it to do its first film without a crossover.

By the time Generations came out the torch was well and truly passed I'd say. They should've had the TNG crew standing on their own, without the need for Kirk.

I liked the scenes on the E-B, but they could have related more to the story/mystery that the E-D crew would then come to face. (Which could then have been a nice little lead into a new series based on the E-B .)
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Old August 24 2013, 11:13 AM   #25
JarodRussell
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

That idea of a long lived bad guy who first deals with the TOS crew, and then later on with the TNG crew, would have been far better. Kirk and Picard wouldn't meet in person, but that wouldn't have been necessary at all. You could mirror Kirk's struggle against the bad guy with Picard's struggle against the bad guy, with a different outcome because Picard studied Kirk's reports on the bad guy. Similar to how they mirrored Luke's fight against Vader and the Emperor with Anakin's fight against Saruman and Palpatine. And don't get me that "But the audience would have been confused" bullshit. They wouldn't have been.

And you could still have Picard and Spock meet in person. And they could have intertwined both stories using flashbacks. But that kind of storytelling wasn't really prominent in the 90s.

Heck, have the final fight in some sort of time displacement thing, where Picard and Kirk actually do meet and team up in their fight against the bad guy and create a predestination paradox. So eventually Kirk and Spock always knew that they would win with the help of some Captain from the future, but he also knew that it would take a lot of time.
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Old August 24 2013, 05:59 PM   #26
inflatabledalek
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

Amidst all the other stuff mentioned, I think a big problem is the film is trying so hard in places not to do the obvious the ideas it comes up with instead wind up being not-obvious because they're terrible.

The opening Enterprise D scene is a case in point. After all, the intent here is to introduce the Next Gen crew to the wider casual audience who go see the new film every couple of years but don't pay much attention to the various TV versions. As an introduction... it's bloody awful.

You do get a rough idea of some of their characters, but there's no real clue as to what they do on the ship or what their roles in the rest of the movie will be beyond Picard's in charge. It also makes it look as if Worf is going to be a major character, before he proceeds to do nothing for the rest of the film (despite the fact his personal nemeses are the secondary baddies. Considering Worf was arguably the third most popular/recognisable character it's amazing how three of the TNG films basically waste him. It can't even be because of doing double duty on DS9 as First Contact managed to give him a decent role right in the middle of his time on that show).

The rejected original idea for the D opening of an action scene defending the observatory might have been more obvious, but you'd have quickly established what everyone on the ship does, their working relationships and had time for a bit of character establishing banter. It would also have had the advantage of being more tied to the main plot that Worf's promotion.

Also, Carson talks on the Blu Ray commentary about how expensive the sailing ship sequence was and that it ate up a surprisingly large amount of the production schedule (I think he says three out of 12 weeks, but that sounds so large he may well be misremembering, but either way it's still a lot for a five minute nothing scene). He talks with pride about how he fought to keep the sequence in the film, but frankly in this case I think the money men were right. That time and cash could have been put to much better use later in the film.

More time could have smoothed out some of the rougher direction (big honking zooms on the face of every villain as they die?) and saved money could have been better used in the final battle. No reused Bird of Prey explosion from the last film, maybe even giving the D a chance to fight a little better in her swansong. At the very least put the number of torpedoes Riker actually asks for into the stock footage...

On a more general note, I'd also have the Picard/Kirk relationship be more equal. It's odd really, TV Picard is more than capable of holding his own with Kirk and their contrasting personalities should play off each other well with each bringing something different to the partnership.

Instead (and I don't know if this is the result of Moore being too a big TOS fan or Shatner having some influence on the script) everything seems to conspire to make Kirk look awesome and Picard look completely useless and fawning.

His grief over his family's death doesn't help Picard as he's very much on the backfoot from the off, but the fact he needs to get a dead old man to come help him punch another old man in the face (with Kirk being his second choice to do this after Guinan...) just makes Picard look useless. The scale just isn't there to justify the team up of these two icons.
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Old August 24 2013, 08:40 PM   #27
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
2. Lesson the power of the Nexus to have it do time travel, endless life, 3-dimensional travel, fulfill your geatest fantasy, compel you to come back. Its too much, too incredible. Use good writing to get over script problems, don't apply more magic.
I always thought they should have "stolen" an idea from Forbidden Planet; have Veridian 3 be the site of an ancient and powerful machine that can make the users greatest fantasy become reality, essentially a reality warping device of sorts. It needs an exotic energy source, such as the Nexus ribbon to power it, which the original inhabitants did use but the disaster which ended their civilisation knocked it out of reach of the planet.

Hence Soran needing to change its course back with the destruction of various stars. In addition to him getting his family back, Soran would tempt Picard with the prospect of creating a world in which the Borg ceased to exist, in which Picard had never been assimilated and used to destroy 39 Federation starships and the loss of around 11,000 lives. At the end of the film Picard would alter the control mechanism so as to use the ribbon to completely destroy the device. A decision that would have repercussions leading into the next film.

Last edited by Captain_Amasov; August 24 2013 at 08:56 PM.
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Old August 24 2013, 10:52 PM   #28
Elvira
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
4. Show the natives Picard wants to save so we could care about them
There wouldn't have been much of a chance to create a brand new species, and get to know them shoehorned into limited time span of a movie, however having instead of Veridian Three it be a planet that TNG had priviously visited might have been better.

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
TNG was on air for seven seasons, amassed a big fanbase of its own and was about to go into feature films, surely the series had enough weight behind it to do its first film without a crossover.
In order to work, the movie had to bring in a non-TNG audience.

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Old August 25 2013, 08:26 AM   #29
Lance
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
TNG was on air for seven seasons, amassed a big fanbase of its own and was about to go into feature films, surely the series had enough weight behind it to do its first film without a crossover.
In order to work, the movie had to bring in a non-TNG audience.
I suppose the thinking by the studio suits was that movies and television are two distinct beasts with two potentially distinct demographics, and that while TNG had undoubtedly proven itself to be a major success as part of the Star Trek phenomenon (the fact that they even green-lighted TNG's move to the big screen in the first place was proof enough of that), there were still those at Paramount who felt they were somehow 'unproven' as a big box office draw. Hence having a crossover with the previous movies was deemed essential as a way of hedging their bets.
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Old August 25 2013, 10:37 PM   #30
Galileo7
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

GameOn wrote: View Post
Tomalak wrote: View Post
I think Ron Moore had it right in his recent commentary - 'Yesterday's Enterprise' should have been the film, with Kirk making the ultimate sacrifice and taking the Enterprise-A back to their deaths to save the future.
Yeah I always thought that Generations should have ended with Kirk on the bridge of the Enterprise-A going down with the ship in order to save the Enterprise-D.
Agree.
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