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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old August 22 2013, 10:34 PM   #31
Agent Richard07
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

^ Take away his memory and he'd be Jason Bourne.
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Old August 22 2013, 10:35 PM   #32
DonIago
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
Did you miss the part where he explains his background?
Which could have been replaced with any form of exposition, really. Instead of Khan and his followers, it could have been John Harrison and a bunch of other officers Starfleet experimented on as lab rats. In fact that might have made more sense as it would have given them a more legitimate reason to be pissed with Admiral Marcus.
Changing the exposition wasn't brought up, only dropping the name itself.
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Old August 23 2013, 02:27 AM   #33
Hober Mallow
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Just what is accomplished by this anyway? It's not marketing, they kept the Khan identity top secret thereby preventing them from taking advantage of any marketing opportunity this idea presents itself with.
They'll be able to do that with the next movie when he returns.
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Old August 23 2013, 11:01 AM   #34
F. King Daniel
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

Seriously, you guys. From "no more Khan ripoffs!" to "I wish we'd gotten a Khan ripoff!"


James T. Kirk is Chris Pine

Spock is Zachary Quinto

Khan is Eggs Benedict Cumberbatch
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Old August 23 2013, 01:21 PM   #35
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

DonIago wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
Did you miss the part where he explains his background?
Which could have been replaced with any form of exposition, really. Instead of Khan and his followers, it could have been John Harrison and a bunch of other officers Starfleet experimented on as lab rats. In fact that might have made more sense as it would have given them a more legitimate reason to be pissed with Admiral Marcus.
Changing the exposition wasn't brought up, only dropping the name itself.
My point was that not that much of the exposition would have changed instead of "I'm Khan, genetically enhanced superhuman from the 20th century. I'm seeking revenge on Admiral Marcus because he's a douche" we would have "I'm John Harrison, Starfleet officer used as a lad rat in experiments in genetic engineering. I'm seeking revenge on Admiral Marcus because he's a douche."
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Old August 23 2013, 03:42 PM   #36
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

And if that was the change then, as I indicated earlier, I might have been left thinking, "Geeze, why not just make him Khan instead of BSing around the fact that that's basically who he is anyway?"

Besides, it would be -awful- if that was all they changed. Off the top of my head:

1) Kirk's death scene is an obvious homage to TWoK. If you're going to take away Khan, that entire sequence needs to be tossed out or significantly reworked.

2) His followers/family/what-not. It's too obvious a callback to Khan to have them and not have him be who he is. It might be workable with a much smaller number...or alternately a much -larger- number...perhaps Marcus was experimenting on a planetary scale.

3) The phonecall to Spock makes no sense at all if the adversary isn't someone we've seen before.

This is exactly why I said that I don't know whether the movie could have worked if Khan wasn't the villain...because the minute you want to have the villain not be Khan you cause a ripple effect through the rest of the film, unless you want it to be obvious who he's supposed to be.
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Old August 23 2013, 04:13 PM   #37
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

DonIago wrote: View Post
And if that was the change then, as I indicated earlier, I might have been left thinking, "Geeze, why not just make him Khan instead of BSing around the fact that that's basically who he is anyway?"

Besides, it would be -awful- if that was all they changed. Off the top of my head:

1) Kirk's death scene is an obvious homage to TWoK. If you're going to take away Khan, that entire sequence needs to be tossed out or significantly reworked.

2) His followers/family/what-not. It's too obvious a callback to Khan to have them and not have him be who he is. It might be workable with a much smaller number...or alternately a much -larger- number...perhaps Marcus was experimenting on a planetary scale.

3) The phonecall to Spock makes no sense at all if the adversary isn't someone we've seen before.

This is exactly why I said that I don't know whether the movie could have worked if Khan wasn't the villain...because the minute you want to have the villain not be Khan you cause a ripple effect through the rest of the film, unless you want it to be obvious who he's supposed to be.
Actually by giving these points, you've proven that it wouldn't be awkward or bad at all to have him not be Khan. For example:

1) Kirk and Spock's reverse death scene from TWOK is indeed a very obvious (quite literally copy-pasted) homage that would be apparent to anyone who had seen the original. That entire sequence needs no changing and actually would've fit better as an homage to TWOK without it actually having to be a copy-paste that doesn't even fit in its current state. The death scene might even have had more significance because people who have no idea what TWOK was would see it for the first time in a unique context.

2) The only difference in Khan's people would've been their origin story which is about 1-2 sentences worth of explanation in a dialogue placed early in the movie's setup phase. In fact they would just have to change the number of people created to make Section 31 look even more diabolical and "outside Starfleet's morals" in a way.

3) Honestly the phonecall to Spock is probably a scene that should've been done away with anyways. It makes absolutely no sense that the current Spock can just call up old Spock for everything the Enterprise runs into. The Temporal Prime directive apparently isn't important to Spock anymore and destroys every ideal surrounding Starfleet's handling of temporal anomalies. How are these officers supposed to grow up and become competent if they are literally given everything and learn/cope with nothing?

The way I see it, dancing around Khan without actually being Khan is a true homage and not a poor copy-paste job that we got instead. Homages are meant to be subtle. It also would've lent to the idea that the adamant defenders of Nu-Trek have always maintained; that Nu-Trek is an alternate timeline with similarities to the original without being a bad attempt at copying the original. If you're going to be another universe, make it another universe with unique villains or its not a reboot, its a bad copy. The new timeline has so much potential if it tries to break itself away from the original. It has little to none if it continues on this road.
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Old August 23 2013, 04:51 PM   #38
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

1) It wasn't a copy-paste given that the roles are reversed and it calls back to earlier developments in the film itself, and you're doing it a disservice to call it such. That said, if Khan wasn't involved then it would remind me more of NEM's take to emulate TWoK without "overtly" emulating TWoK...and that's not at all something I wish to see again.

2) That's my point though - changes would need to be made. The premise brought to me was "drop the name Khan but keep everything else". Any changes made to the film aside from that support my point that it's not that simple.

3) Personally I liked the phonecall, and Spock Prime made a point of saying that he wasn't generally comfortable discussing this sort of information. It seems likely that for a lesser (or perhaps less personal) threat he wouldn't have been so forthcoming. Anyway, if you know there's a future version of yourself out there that may have information about a current threat that you don't possess, it would be the height of irresponsibility -not- to ask them about it.

Since I didn't feel what transpired was a poor copy-paste job but rather a fairly respectful homage that maybe on occasion was a bit too on-the-nose, the idea of dancing around Khan without making it obvious that that's exactly what they're doing strikes me as...dubious. Which is what I've been saying the whole time. Maybe they could have made it happen, but since we don't have such a version of the film to look at for comparison, I'll say I'm glad they didn't try to pull off that kind of dance. It's been my experience that Trek writing frequently doesn't handle that particular kind of delicacy very well.

Anyway, we have exactly two movies now to use as a baseline for how the series might progress, so to conclude it's never going to do anything original with that degree of evidence seems shortsighted.

If memory serves, the first two episodes of TNG weren't exactly breathtaking either..but they did lay the groundwork for, pardon my French, some pretty cool shit to come.
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Old August 23 2013, 06:18 PM   #39
AUbricklogic
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

DonIago wrote: View Post
1) It wasn't a copy-paste given that the roles are reversed and it calls back to earlier developments in the film itself, and you're doing it a disservice to call it such. That said, if Khan wasn't involved then it would remind me more of NEM's take to emulate TWoK without "overtly" emulating TWoK...and that's not at all something I wish to see again.
Actually it is in fact a copy-paste. If you tried to turn in any sort of literary work that is clearly based on a preceding work from another author and have so many exact lines and dialogues, your professor would undoubtedly note that you had essentially copy-pasted from the older work and almost certainly give you a very poor grade as a result. This is not an opinion, its pure academic and literary standards. If you tried to emulate a song this closely with exact lines being taken, you would have a lawsuit against you which you would most certainly lose (there's mountains of evidence to support all these statements). If there weren't already a large number of cases where this has already happened in this exact manner, I might give your view some more thought but this is not the reality of the matter.

2) That's my point though - changes would need to be made. The premise brought to me was "drop the name Khan but keep everything else". Any changes made to the film aside from that support my point that it's not that simple.
Taking the idea too literally has led you to a rather skewed viewpoint. Most all of the story can remain intact as it is with extremely minor changes being made and the so-called "villain" doesn't have to be Khan for any of it to make sense. All changes in any scene are extremely minor and the overall script and most other scenes for story-line development could remain almost identical.

However, you are correct if you take the statement completely literally. Just going through the script and changing the name "Khan" would not work. This is not what I understood from what people were suggesting though. I took it as "96% of the dialogue and scenes would work with any villain, not uniquely Khan. The other 4% would need adjusting or deletion/replacement scenes but only 4% or so wouldn't work with a different villain."

3) Personally I liked the phonecall, and Spock Prime made a point of saying that he wasn't generally comfortable discussing this sort of information. It seems likely that for a lesser (or perhaps less personal) threat he wouldn't have been so forthcoming. Anyway, if you know there's a future version of yourself out there that may have information about a current threat that you don't possess, it would be the height of irresponsibility -not- to ask them about it.
The idea of a timeline being different would make such a phonecall extremely illogical. How could he give you advice on an event that is not unfolding exactly the same as it was in his timeline? Temporal mechanics 101 stands contrary to your statement. It also was very poor in my opinion having Spock Prime quite literally state "I have told you I would not reveal anything that might alter your fate. That being said, I'm going to reveal a lot of things that will most certainly alter your fate." It attaches this timeline to the old one and I was under the impression the whole point of the Nu-Trek timeline was to reboot and break away from the old one. This scene flies directly in the face off their own statements about a desire to be a different Trek universe.

Since I didn't feel what transpired was a poor copy-paste job but rather a fairly respectful homage that maybe on occasion was a bit too on-the-nose, the idea of dancing around Khan without making it obvious that that's exactly what they're doing strikes me as...dubious. Which is what I've been saying the whole time. Maybe they could have made it happen, but since we don't have such a version of the film to look at for comparison, I'll say I'm glad they didn't try to pull off that kind of dance. It's been my experience that Trek writing frequently doesn't handle that particular kind of delicacy very well.

Anyway, we have exactly two movies now to use as a baseline for how the series might progress, so to conclude it's never going to do anything original with that degree of evidence seems shortsighted.

If memory serves, the first two episodes of TNG weren't exactly breathtaking either..but they did lay the groundwork for, pardon my French, some pretty cool shit to come.
I know that TNG basically copy-pasted episodes from TOS like "The Naked Time" for example or "Where No Man Has Gone Before", but you can do that with a TV show and not get a huge amount of backlash because you have many more episodes left in the season that will diverge the storyline and promote more unique stories down the line. In a movie, its a lot worse to do something like that because the feature is just a feature. There is no 20+ movies scheduled to come out in the same year that could complement or elaborate upon the characters and long-term plights without losing the audience over years of production.

I thought the 2009 reboot did a decent job of allowing us to see the open door for some "cool shit" as you put it. It was completely unnecessary for them to make another film that did nothing special compared to the first. In my very small and largely-unimportant opinion, they should've used the 2nd movie to build upon what the first one established. They can still toss in some small homages that probably only avid Trekkies would get, but it was important that they break away from the Prime universe as much as possible. The whole point of rebooting was so they could be a new universe and bringing Khan back is completely the opposite of that. If anything showing that Khan might not be so pivotal to this universe would open far more doors and more "cool shit".
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Old August 23 2013, 07:10 PM   #40
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

"Out of danger, you saved the crew."

"You'll flood the whole compartment!"

What, two lines of dialogue? That's a copy-paste/blatant ripoff?
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Old August 23 2013, 08:27 PM   #41
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

It was more pronounced than that...but I still think it qualifies as an homage, not a copy-paste ripoff or what-not. And frankly given what they were going for, I think it plays rather well.

Inverting the Spock/Kirk roles was fairly clever, as was calling back to what occurred in the film earlier.
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Old August 23 2013, 08:58 PM   #42
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

AUbricklogic wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
1) It wasn't a copy-paste given that the roles are reversed and it calls back to earlier developments in the film itself, and you're doing it a disservice to call it such. That said, if Khan wasn't involved then it would remind me more of NEM's take to emulate TWoK without "overtly" emulating TWoK...and that's not at all something I wish to see again.
Actually it is in fact a copy-paste. If you tried to turn in any sort of literary work that is clearly based on a preceding work from another author and have so many exact lines and dialogues, your professor would undoubtedly note that you had essentially copy-pasted from the older work and almost certainly give you a very poor grade as a result. This is not an opinion, its pure academic and literary standards. If you tried to emulate a song this closely with exact lines being taken, you would have a lawsuit against you which you would most certainly lose (there's mountains of evidence to support all these statements). If there weren't already a large number of cases where this has already happened in this exact manner, I might give your view some more thought but this is not the reality of the matter.
If that's the case then TWOK is just a Rip-Off of Moby Dick, Khan is Ahab, Kirk the White Whale, hell Khan even spouts Moby Dick dialog. Same for First Contact with the roles reversed! RIP OFFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !
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Old August 24 2013, 01:59 AM   #43
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

DonIago wrote: View Post
And if that was the change then, as I indicated earlier, I might have been left thinking, "Geeze, why not just make him Khan instead of BSing around the fact that that's basically who he is anyway?"
Except he isn't really. Orci himself admitted the character was developed as an entirely new character who was named Khan only because Lindelof wanted Khan to be in the movie even before it was written. And really, it could have been a better movie if they stuck with that new character instead.
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Old August 24 2013, 02:36 AM   #44
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

...and again, I'll say that if the only thing that changed was that he "wasn't Khan" but the rest of the movie remained essentially the same, I would have been left thinking, "If they're going to go this far, why not take it all the way and just say he's Khan?"

I -really- don't know what's so unclear about this.

"STID is about a genetically engineered supervillain from Earth's past who puts Kirk and Spock in a no-win scenario, and one of them must make a huge sacrifice to defeat him..." Really? Where have I heard that plot summary before?
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Old August 24 2013, 03:02 AM   #45
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

DonIago wrote: View Post
...and again, I'll say that if the only thing that changed was that he "wasn't Khan" but the rest of the movie remained essentially the same, I would have been left thinking, "If they're going to go this far, why not take it all the way and just say he's Khan?"

I -really- don't know what's so unclear about this.

"STID is about a genetically engineered supervillain from Earth's past who puts Kirk and Spock in a no-win scenario, and one of them must make a huge sacrifice to defeat him..." Really? Where have I heard that plot summary before?
Khan being from earth's past had nothing to do with the story.
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