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Old August 23 2013, 10:26 PM   #91
Praetor
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Timo wrote: View Post
Bob, you are definitely onto something as regards cargo/supplies stowage and transfer (although the actual designers of these photographic models probably didn't spare any thought to such things). With the increased reach of a successful transwarp drive, there would have to be a logistics revolution in Starfleet - and the Excelsior, no matter how experimental, was certainly built with success in mind, featuring all the familiar elements of a deep space exploration and combat starship as defined in TOS and redefined in TMP. Plus more...

The "more" could certainly be logistics-related. Or then it could be a side effect of the ship shunting all of its truly experimental and untrustworthy bits into the lower keel area, and keeping a path clear for dumping them to space at the earliest sign of trouble!
Brilliantly put, by you and Bob. I will keep this at heart when I start revising my TM.

Timo wrote: View Post
But taken literally, transwarp is "beyond warp", "the next thing after warp". Once adopted to use, it ceases to be transwarp, and the sights are set for the next "the next".

Which is why all sorts of completely unrelated FTL drives can be "transwarp" at the same time, or at various points of history.
I have a feeling I'm going to have to re-make up my my mind about this. I still like my current have-my-cake-and-eat-it-too solution.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I believe the transwarp drive was only a large module aboard NX-2000. If the 23rd Century transwarp failed, the module was discarded, if transwarp worked, they came up with smaller components and integrated those into the Excelsior Class. Either way, the chasm became available for other applications.
Okay. Do you have a particular vision for how the transwarp drive would be a modular unit? Seems to kind of defy the notion of a warp core as we know it... or even the intermix chamber of TMP.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Frankly, it's the weird astonishment of the bridge crew at the start of ST III that made me wonder. Have they not seen the ship in drydock before, don't they know she has an experimental transwarp drive?
See, I don't read it as astonishment. I read it as mock awe on the part of Scotty and Uhura, and genuine interest on Sulu's part.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Why even bring her from the drydock inside the spacedock? Kirk's Enterprise departed twice from drydock, Harriman's Enterprise-B departed from drydock, only Excelsior didn't.
For the Enterprise-B, we saw a commissioning ceremony taking place in drydock. We are apt to assume the same thing took place for the Excelsior in her own drydock. The Enterprise-B was returning somewhere to get her torpedoes installed on Tuesday - perhaps it was Spacedock to which she would return for a final fitting out?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Of course, Earth Spacedock is shielded from curious eyes and that quarter section with the Excelsior may have been a restricted area, hence the bridge crew's surprise.

Maybe it was a deliberate decision to have the Enterprise anchor there and thus withdraw her from public attention and scatter the crew USS Liberty (the real ship) style.
I'm sure there's some measure of security afforded by Spacedock, but surely also the Sol System is relatively secure from prying eyes already? Or at least, any security compromises are considered acceptable.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
If you seriously come to think of it, Kirk's career was heading for a dive. Somebody had to answer for what happened in ST II and considering all the lives lost under Kirk's watch because of his negligence, not to mention his naive and personal vouching for Dr. Marcus' Genesis Project, I can't help but feel that Captain Styles' threat was as empty as you could possibly imagine. Shall I continue...?
In my TM writeup, I sort of concluded that Admiral Morrow had it out a bit for the Enterprise (because he was making his legacy in the Excelsior) and that Kirk and Styles were rivals from the Academy.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
She was a bridge officer aboard Excelsior in ST VI and I think she had been on that ship from day one with that lounge in ST III having been reserved exclusively for Excelsior personnel.
Then why'd she get bumped from Commander in TSFS to Chief Petty Officer in TVH in the service of Starfleet HQ, then back to Lieutenant Commander in TUC when on Excelsior?

Workbee wrote: View Post
Alex:
It always struck me odd how in the movies, they depicted most of the lower hull being occupied by engineering and the shuttle bay. In TOS Engineering and Shuttle Bays were each confined to singular rooms (and yes, one can argue there were multiple engineering rooms reflecting the different configurations of the set, but we don't conclusively which ones or if any of them were in the secondary hull). I liked to imagine that the lower hull was filled with "science stuff" -- sensors, equipment, labs, etc. The revelation in TMP that such a large volume of that part of the ship was dedicated to the engines struck a dissonant chord for me. Any explanation that moves away from gargantuan drive system thingy, in favor of exploration specific purposes is more appealing to me. Star Trek, for me at least, was never about "breaking speed records" -- especially Warp Speed was basically as fast or as slow as the plot needed it to be from episode to episode. I want the ship filled with labratories, teams of scientists, botanists, astronomers, cartographers and the like analyzing stuff... WITH SCIENCE!! To me, the Excelsior was to (and by TUC did) herald a shift away from the Bennett/Meyer/Nimoy militaristic Starfleet back toward the peaceful scientific Starfleet of TOS. Design emphasizes this -- torpedo launchers are again recessed instead of sticking right out there on the refit-E. As much as I enjoyed the refit-E's aesthetic, that was something I had issue with.
Very interesting points I hadn't fully considered before. I do agree with you about the science labs. If the navigational deflector is also the main sensor array, then it also makes sense that there would be adjoining science labs. I propsed the protusions on the Enterprise-B added to the secondary hull mostly added more science lab facilities, along similar lines of thinking.

Timo wrote: View Post
I'd argue that Spacedock Earth is exclusively for embarkation and disembarkation - the equivalent of a commercial airport, only in orbit. Perhaps it's even a civilian installation for the most part, with Starfleet just holding a pier or two (at least during the militant 2280s). That the Excelsior is there is a sign that all work on her has been brought to completion and she's ready to embark on test flights.
I'd agree that it was more of an embarkation/debarkation point - but I would think of it less like an airport and more like a pier. That civilians are there is probably somewhat incidental. I'm sure there is adequate security aboard to prevent stealing of a ship. Oh, wait...

Timo wrote: View Post
We could similarly dismiss the comparable Constellation ugliness as old technology taken to ridiculous extremes before new tech steps in. But the Miranda and the Sydney are ugly the very same way, with protruding this-and-that, and they supposedly aren't refits or extreme experiments.
While I agree on the Constellation and the DS9 kitbashes being old(er) technology taken to extremes, I would disagree that the Miranda and Sydney are similarly ugly. I think they're simply second-rate as opposed to the Constitution class. As for the registry numbers of the Frankenfleet, perhaps some of them were given new numbers when they were recommissioned?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I'd say that "Day of the Dove" answers some of your questions. According to the alien entity's exit point in TOS one engine room was at the center of the engineering hull near the bow.

It's also interesting to note that neither Kirk or Spock found it odd, that 400 crew members went to the lower decks and got trapped below this engine room. Looks like there should be plenty of labs and workplaces down below which I hope to be able to illustrate in one of the next stages of my TOS Enterprise deck plan project.
Great point!

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Addendum: I should state that the Excelsior's designer name I mentioned in my little conjectural speech ("Thorndike") is not entirely conjectural.

I thought his name was mentioned by Uhura in ST III when she sees the Excelsior.

As it turns out the name is an invention of the movie's German dubbing (instead of "will you look at that" the German Uhura said "Thorndike's idea").

Ain't that cool, now we also know the name of the Excelsior's designer!
Odd little tidbit. I shall have to work that into my TM. I trust you won't let me forget it?

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Yeah, I like that a lot. It's "Spacedock" rather than "Starbase 1", it has a cantina full of civvies and pirates, and it's got some truly abysmal policemen.
You know, I always assumed that took place on Earth. You may be right, though.

Also, I'm fairly certain that was Starfleet security holding McCoy, rather than civilian. Redshirts by any other name have just as bad aim.
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Old August 23 2013, 10:31 PM   #92
Timo
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

refit Enterprise - dockyard is departure point for maiden voyage and test flight
Only because she was in an exceptional hurry. The box docks could well be for repair work only, and starships would extremely seldom visit those, whereas routine crew rotation and the like would often involve Spacedock-like facilities (except in deep space where it would involve K-7 lookalikes).
Enterprise-B - dockyard is departure point for maiden voyage and test flight
A ceremonial launch and a pleasure cruise only. After that, the ship would probably return to the box dock for months of further fitting (or at least until next Tuesday), and then receive full crew and reach the stage at which NX-2000 was when Kirk got home from Genesis.

Excelsior however sits in Earth Spacedock to prepare for her maiden voyage and test flight.
No indication that she wouldn't have been on her maiden voyage months or years ago already. Only that she hasn't been testing transwarp under the command of Styles yet, at least not at such levels as to threaten the standing speed records.

It's also interesting to note that neither Kirk or Spock found it odd, that 400 crew members went to the lower decks and got trapped below this engine room.
Hmm. Why "below"? It's not in the dialogue anywhere. The prisoners are "below" only from the viewpoints of the bridge and the armory...

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Old August 23 2013, 10:40 PM   #93
Timo
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Then why'd she get bumped from Commander in TSFS to Chief Petty Officer in TVH in the service of Starfleet HQ, then back to Lieutenant Commander in TUC when on Excelsior?
Actually, it's only junior Lieutenant in ST6:TUC. The Lieutenant Commander bit comes from Tuvok's feverish dream in "Flashback", and is probably about as much based in reality as the rest of that dream.

But yes, the reddish-haired Commander in ST3 represents a massive discontinuity in Rand's career, and thus probably is best interpreted as GLW playing another character for a change. The actual Janice Rand going mustang after ST4 and reaching Lt (jg) by the time of ST6 is plausible career development...

Also, I'm fairly certain that was Starfleet security holding McCoy, rather than civilian.
The gaol personnel certainly wore Starfleet insignia, as did their leather-armored reinforcements. It's just the plainclothesman who arrests McCoy in the first place that we might interpret as a civilian cop of some sort - he says he represents "Federation Security", which may be an organization separate from Starfleet.

That would be our only time witnessing law enforcement performed by civilians, though. (It's more like "secret police" business, actually. But if CIA arrested McCoy, would they agree to deliver him to a USAF gaol?)

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Old August 23 2013, 11:11 PM   #94
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Tomalak wrote: View Post
It's "Spacedock" rather than "Starbase 1", it has a cantina full of civvies and pirates, and it's got some truly abysmal policemen.
Are you implying that Kirk and the others went to his apartment in San Francisco and had abandoned the good doctor on the spacedock?!?

They think he's home, but McCoy apparently visits a bar in San Francisco, is picked up by a Fed and policemen, is put in a holding cell, freed by Kirk and beamed up to the Enterprise by Uhura at the Old City Station, "the worst duty station in town".

Bob
Huh. Guess I've had that wrong for the last twenty years.
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Old August 23 2013, 11:14 PM   #95
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Timo wrote: View Post
That would be our only time witnessing law enforcement performed by civilians, though. (It's more like "secret police" business, actually. But if CIA arrested McCoy, would they agree to deliver him to a USAF gaol?)

Timo Saloniemi
Secret police is right. How does he know who McCoy is anyway? Has he run his ID through a database off camera?

One for those who think the Federation is really a Stalinist police state.
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Old August 23 2013, 11:16 PM   #96
Robert Comsol
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Praetor wrote: View Post
Do you have a particular vision for how the transwarp drive would be a modular unit? Seems to kind of defy the notion of a warp core as we know it... or even the intermix chamber of TMP.
Damnit, I'm a deck plan designer, not a transwarp engineer!

Might have something to do with tapping into the main navigational deflector or the creation of exotic energy. We'd first have to figure out the defining characteristic of "tranwarp". Can't TNG's "Descent" provide some clues?

Praetor wrote: View Post
In my TM writeup, I sort of concluded that Admiral Morrow had it out a bit for the Enterprise (because he was making his legacy in the Excelsior) and that Kirk and Styles were rivals from the Academy.
Possible, but Styles was an egotistic prick and everybody would have been his rival Frankly, I think that guy was a loose cannon, totally unqualified for any high-profile diplomatic mission and Starfleet was in desperate need to give this guy an assignment where he couldn't do harm. Testing the Excelsior for performance would qualify as such, IMO.

Praetor wrote: View Post
Odd little tidbit. I shall have to work that into my TM. I trust you won't let me forget it?
Do or do not. Just bear in mind that there is a high probability that German fans like Bernd Schneider, Tobias Richter and others would instinctively notice the absence of the name of the ship's designer "Thorndike".
I do not know from where "Berliner Synchron Wenzel Lüdecke" got the idea to use this name in the dubbing to identify the Excelsior Class designer. But there is some odd coincidence that we do have an Excelsior Class Berlin (NCC-14232). In a manner of speaking there is a connection Thorndike-Berlin-Excelsior Class.

Praetor wrote: View Post
I always assumed that took place on Earth.
The movie suggests your assumption is right, looks like you missed my comment while writing yours.

Bob
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Old August 23 2013, 11:21 PM   #97
Timo
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

There's room for speculation there, I guess. McCoy was said to be "home, resting comfortably, pumped full of tranquilizers" a few scenes earlier. So unless he lived in that giant space city, he must have gotten away from it for a while at least - but returning there is by no means out of the question. The bar might be aboard Spacedock Earth, or down at San Francisco, or perhaps in Berlin, or on the Moon, or at the bottom of the Caribbean. Travel around and out of the globe in the 23rd century is fairly trivial, at least if you are a Starfleet officer...

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Old August 23 2013, 11:26 PM   #98
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

I guess when I was a kid I just assumed he'd go looking for a guy with a spaceship on the big space station we'd just seen. I've just stuck with that ever since!
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Old August 23 2013, 11:29 PM   #99
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Timo wrote: View Post

As much as I enjoyed the refit-E's aesthetic, that was something I had issue with.
OTOH, a "refit" usually is an ugly thing, built of compromise atop compromise...
Oh, it isn't ugly by any means. In fact, I think that it LOOKS great. I think the word is brazen. Having the torp bays out like that just screamed, excuse the expression, "look at THESE guns" or if you prefer, "we come in peace: shoot to kill." It's as if they took the general smooth aesthetic of the TOS enterprise, but got it backward.

In TOS, all the phaser emitters and torpedo ports were recessed and possibly covered, while navigational sensor / deflector dish protruded. In the movies, the sensors and deflectors were recessed, and the weapons were what protruded.

I am sure there are reasons for this both in universe and production wise, but ironically these changes happened under Roddenberry's watch, before Bennett and Meyer were ever involved.

Sorry to get so far off topic.
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Old August 23 2013, 11:38 PM   #100
Timo
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Ah, I understand. But leaving newly installed, supposedly improved weapons protrude could also be the sign of a half-baked job...

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Old August 23 2013, 11:49 PM   #101
Workbee
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Regarding the location of the bar with McCoy and aliens, the script suggest it is on earth since it specifies "Night" and "across the street"

79 INT. BAR - NIGHT 79

A crowded, smoke-filled watering hole of the twenty-
third century, filled with a smattering of civilians,
Starfleet personnel, and visitors from strange and far-
off civilizations. It does not have the bizarre quali-
ties of the "Star Wars Bar" which is across the
street.
Though it was never explicitly specified in the movie, so take it with a grain of salt.
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Old August 23 2013, 11:56 PM   #102
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Timo wrote: View Post
Ah, I understand. But leaving newly installed, supposedly improved weapons protrude could also be the sign of a half-baked job...

Timo Saloniemi
No arguments for me. Just more work for Scotty to sort out I guess.

Though this possibility is slightly undermined if the Enterprise-A was a scratchbuild instead of another refit job. But we probably better duke out that argument over here, otherwise we'll break this thread more than we already have.

Last edited by Workbee; August 23 2013 at 11:57 PM. Reason: bad grammar day :-(
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Old August 24 2013, 12:03 AM   #103
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Secret police is right. How does he know who McCoy is anyway? Has he run his ID through a database off camera?
As a member of the Enterprise's senior staff, McCoy was connected to the "Genesis Issue" and therefore a familiar face to this Fed arresting him.

I'm telling you, Kirk's career was over when he left the Enterprise considering the mess in ST II, but nobody including Morrow had told him, yet:
  • Ceti Alpha V Disaster: Had Kirk failed to report what he did in "Space Seed" or had a Starfleet employee screwed up big time? It must have been Kirk's responsibility to check whether the system was safe to abandon Federation citizens there (interesting legal question concerning Khan & company). Apparently it wasn't and practically Kirk had condamned them to death.
  • Loss of USS Reliant: Captain Terrell (and Chekov!) were obviously unaware that Ceti Alpha V had been inhabited by Khan & company (well, they would have checked, wouldn't they?). The loss of NCC-1864 was therefore due to the original filing mistake and Captain Terrell could no longer answer for the loss of his ship. Probably Kirk would have become the scapegoat to blame the loss for.
  • Violation of General Order 12: Resulted in fatal injuries aboad USS Enterprise and substantial damage of NCC-1701 because of Kirk's negligence. Log records show that Kirk didn't listen to advice of navigational officer.
  • Mutara Sector losses: Regula lab scientists, engineering crew of USS Reliant, several crew members of USS Enterprise, USS Reliant
Inevitably there would have been a board of inquiry. I'd say it didn't look too good for Kirk and his career would probably have been over - only in the real world, of course.

Bob
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Old August 24 2013, 12:15 AM   #104
Timo
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

It must have been Kirk's responsibility to check whether the system was safe to abandon Federation citizens there (interesting legal question concerning Khan & company). Apparently it wasn't and practically Kirk had condamned them to death.
I doubt a check would have revealed anything amiss... "Exploding planets" sounds like one of the more unpredictable events in the Trek universe, considering we never heard of such a thing in the other couple of hundred hours of Star Trek.

Probably Kirk would have become the scapegoat to blame the loss for.
Well, Chekov sounds a more likely candidate there. He's an officer from the lost ship, and he knew about Khan and, as far as we know, was the navigator who took Kirk's ship to the place of marooning originally.

Violation of General Order 12
Since we don't know what GO 12 says, we don't know whether Kirk violated it. Saavik may have done the quoting because Kirk was slow to take the necessary measures (but did take them eventually, and in time), or because Kirk was not following the recommendations Saavik found relevant (but was at liberty to do so). Or perhaps even because she thought Kirk was taking too aggressive a stance!

Mutara Sector losses: Regula lab scientists, engineering crew of USS Reliant, several crew members of USS Enterprise, USS Reliant
Kirk's career didn't end with the very similar casualties in "Doomsday Machine". Casualties as such mean little; culpability issues would be paramount. And Kirk causing all the carnage by failing to behead Khan originally isn't a charge that would go down well in court.

Incidentally, what's with the "engineering crew of the Reliant" bit? Do we have a reason to think those weren't Khan's own men?

On the other hand, perhaps the entire crew of the ship was killed, like suggested in certain novels? We only have Terrell's word that Khan "marooned" them; it's rather more likely that all were executed for convenience, and Terrell was merely trying to distract Kirk.

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Old August 24 2013, 12:27 AM   #105
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Timo wrote: View Post
On the other hand, perhaps the entire crew of the ship was killed, like suggested in certain novels? We only have Terrell's word that Khan "marooned" them; it's rather more likely that all were executed for convenience, and Terrell was merely trying to distract Kirk.

Timo Saloniemi
I don't know, Khan would perhaps see a certain poetic justice in marooning Reliant's crew on Celti Alpha V, just as he liked the idea of leaving Kirk to die inside a giant rock. I don't see how Terrell lying is much of a distraction in that particular situation.
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