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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old August 22 2013, 06:57 PM   #121
teya
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

R. Star wrote: View Post
Her social development was lacking. The word irrelevant would be applied to such things most of her life. But her physical strength and intelligence were off the scale. Even if that knowledge was often lacking wisdom behind it. It's still not fair to label her as a child or treat her like one as Janeway so often did.
Exactly.

The sorts of activities a child would want to participate in were, in Seven's eyes, irrelevant.
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Old August 22 2013, 07:00 PM   #122
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

her social development was still that of a child, being rude, acting on implulse not considering other people's feelings. that's how a child is. She might not want to "play" but she was still a child mentally in some ways
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Old August 22 2013, 07:07 PM   #123
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

I liked Voyager the best of all Star Trek series because of the shared goal of the crew in getting home, and to get home, it requires pulling together, their resources and experiences, to increase the odds for survival for all of them in trying to get home, no matter how bleak the outcome was for them reaching home in their lifetime.

I liked the fact that they took the time to stop along the way to smell the roses, so to speak for space exploration.
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Old August 22 2013, 07:08 PM   #124
teya
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

KaraBear wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Her social development was lacking. The word irrelevant would be applied to such things most of her life. But her physical strength and intelligence were off the scale. Even if that knowledge was often lacking wisdom behind it. It's still not fair to label her as a child or treat her like one as Janeway so often did.
I think, at least more in the beginning, she treated her as a potential threat. Seven was unpredictable. She decked harry and tried to contact the borg, she beamed over the injured 8472 to the hirogen, she woke up those guys in Dragon's teeth...she took it upon herself to do those things, occasionally going against an order
Frankly, I think it's amazing that Seven developed as much as she did, given that Janeway clearly thought of her as a piece of equipment, relegating her to the cargo bay, where she had not the least semblance of privacy. People walked in & out as if she wasn't there.

As to the examples you cite, does her motivation mean anything?

1. Decking Harry & contacting the Borg: she'd been on the ship less than a week & wanted to go home.

2. Sending 8472 to the Hirogen: As she said to Janeway, "A lesson in compassion is little use if we are dead."

3. Dragon's Teeth: She said that she had participated in the destruction of civilizations and that helping to resurrect one was gratifying.

Looks like a progression to me.

And none of it resembles the motivations of a child.

Except, perhaps, the first. Except that going home was also the motivation for Janeway & the rest of the crew...
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Old August 22 2013, 07:13 PM   #125
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

her general behavior did resmble that of a child. considering that she was assimilated at 9 that makes sense.

as far as the cargo bay...did she want privacy? did she ask for it? did she ask for he own quarters?
I don't think she thought of her as a piece of equipment, she loved her. That was the point of Endgame
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Old August 22 2013, 07:23 PM   #126
teya
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

KaraBear wrote: View Post
her general behavior did resmble that of a child. considering that she was assimilated at 9 that makes sense.
Actually, she was assimilated at 6 or 7.

And no. I don't think her behavior resembled that of a child.

as far as the cargo bay...did she want privacy? did she ask for it? did she ask for he own quarters?
Did she know that she could?

In "Human Error," she wasn't offered quarters until her implants were removed. This holodeck fantasy says a great deal about where Seven felt she belonged. She didn't think she deserved quarters because she wasn't "fully human."

I don't think she thought of her as a piece of equipment, she loved her. That was the point of Endgame
People can love other people and still have preconceptions & prejudiced opinions about them.
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Old August 22 2013, 07:34 PM   #127
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

teya wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
her general behavior did resmble that of a child. considering that she was assimilated at 9 that makes sense.
Actually, she was assimilated at 6 or 7.

And no. I don't think her behavior resembled that of a child.

as far as the cargo bay...did she want privacy? did she ask for it? did she ask for he own quarters?
Did she know that she could?

In "Human Error," she wasn't offered quarters until her implants were removed. This holodeck fantasy says a great deal about where Seven felt she belonged. She didn't think she deserved quarters because she wasn't "fully human."

I don't think she thought of her as a piece of equipment, she loved her. That was the point of Endgame
People can love other people and still have preconceptions & prejudiced opinions about them.
ok at 6 then, which makes her even more of a child.

Human error was entirely a holodeck program, her "offer" of quarters was within the program
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Old August 22 2013, 07:42 PM   #128
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

teacake wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
I'll check the used video store next month, they might have the set. I only have about $5 in the bank at the moment. I'm still trying to understand Inception, which I only got about 2 weeks ago.
I hated Inception. Fight Club Lite.

I'm sure you can rent Firefly at any dvd rental. It's just a suggestion, such a fun show in so many ways and gorgeous sets, people.. I'm like, "here, you need to just try this cake, no really it's delicious, you should try it, just a here a forkful.. "
Sorry for the late reply, but I just woke up an hour ago.

I prefer purchasing the product to build a personal library, especially when it comes to science fiction. I haven't done a video rental since 1990. It's the same reason I won't do Netflix.

It's also a reason I have trouble keeping money in the bank since discovering the used music/video store nearby. This month alone, I'd bought Inception, the 2 Superman serials starring Kirk Alyn, the 1st season of George Reeves' Superman, and TOS: The Menagerie.

BACK ON TOPIC:

Catching up on the Seven discussion--

In some ways, it's like she's the classical soldier in enemy territory, who is essentially forced by Janeway to join their side. Even if she tries to return, whether by choice or not, Janeway keeps pulling her back in until she's closer to realizing humanity. Eventually, she becomes what was once her enemy. Instead of resisting Janeway, she begins resisting the Borg.
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Old August 22 2013, 08:12 PM   #129
teya
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

KaraBear wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
her general behavior did resmble that of a child. considering that she was assimilated at 9 that makes sense.
Actually, she was assimilated at 6 or 7.

And no. I don't think her behavior resembled that of a child.



Did she know that she could?

In "Human Error," she wasn't offered quarters until her implants were removed. This holodeck fantasy says a great deal about where Seven felt she belonged. She didn't think she deserved quarters because she wasn't "fully human."

I don't think she thought of her as a piece of equipment, she loved her. That was the point of Endgame
People can love other people and still have preconceptions & prejudiced opinions about them.
ok at 6 then, which makes her even more of a child.

Human error was entirely a holodeck program, her "offer" of quarters was within the program
Seven designed the holodeck program. It shows the way she thinks about herself & her relationships with others.

Most clearly, it shows that she thinks of herself as not fully human and not deserving of the things she desires (quarters, privacy, companionship) until she is "fully human." The tragic thing about that is that she never will be.

This is hardly a child's development.

I think we often have a tendency to look at people in terms of age, and not look at them in terms of who they are on their own terms.

This is all, of course, my opinion. I hope you'll forgive me that it differs from yours.
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Old August 22 2013, 08:14 PM   #130
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

Melakon wrote: View Post
Catching up on the Seven discussion--

In some ways, it's like she's the classical soldier in enemy territory, who is essentially forced by Janeway to join their side. Even if she tries to return, whether by choice or not, Janeway keeps pulling her back in until she's closer to realizing humanity. Eventually, she becomes what was once her enemy.
I do think that's a closer analogy than simply saying that Seven's development ended at the age she was assimilated & that therefore she starts from that point.

ETA: Jeri has said she's heard from people who were abused as children who appreciate her performance as Seven, who relate to the character, because the issues she deals with are much the same as theirs.
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Old August 22 2013, 08:20 PM   #131
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

teya wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post

Actually, she was assimilated at 6 or 7.

And no. I don't think her behavior resembled that of a child.



Did she know that she could?

In "Human Error," she wasn't offered quarters until her implants were removed. This holodeck fantasy says a great deal about where Seven felt she belonged. She didn't think she deserved quarters because she wasn't "fully human."



People can love other people and still have preconceptions & prejudiced opinions about them.
ok at 6 then, which makes her even more of a child.

Human error was entirely a holodeck program, her "offer" of quarters was within the program
Seven designed the holodeck program. It shows the way she thinks about herself & her relationships with others.

Most clearly, it shows that she thinks of herself as not fully human and not deserving of the things she desires (quarters, privacy, companionship) until she is "fully human." The tragic thing about that is that she never will be.

This is hardly a child's development.

I think we often have a tendency to look at people in terms of age, and not look at them in terms of who they are on their own terms.

This is all, of course, my opinion. I hope you'll forgive me that it differs from yours.
obviously it's all opinion. it's not something to be "forgiven" for. It's good that we have different opinions, that way we can discuss things.
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Old August 22 2013, 11:41 PM   #132
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

I always thought it was funny how Janeway and the Borg Queen both wanted to shape Seven in their own image, each blaming the other side for her failings, yet both failed to grasp for better or worse she was a hybrid between the Borg and human cultures. They always saw her as they wanted to see her and not as she was. Kinda sad really, she had to chose between who's objectifying her less.
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Old August 23 2013, 12:06 AM   #133
teya
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

R. Star wrote: View Post
I always thought it was funny how Janeway and the Borg Queen both wanted to shape Seven in their own image, each blaming the other side for her failings, yet both failed to grasp for better or worse she was a hybrid between the Borg and human cultures. They always saw her as they wanted to see her and not as she was. Kinda sad really, she had to chose between who's objectifying her less.
Yep. And the Doctor wanted to create his ideal woman.

This was why I liked the interaction between Chakotay and Seven in "Survival Instinct." He didn't tell her what to think. He talked her through the issue & let her come to her own conclusion.

Like the unique adult she is.

ETA: And look at that! This is something I liked about Voyager. Nothing like being occasionally on topic.
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Old August 23 2013, 12:23 AM   #134
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

Wasn't that the exactly same Cargo Bay where Chakotay murdered 40 or so drones?

And Seven built her house on it.
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Old August 23 2013, 01:22 AM   #135
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

Maybe she thought that Voyager would eventually jettison her too. She did make a determined effort to stay alive in the open Jeffries tube when the cargo deck was depressurized in Scorpion.
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