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Old August 21 2013, 09:47 PM   #256
bbjeg
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Nothing personal. Heck, I recently got into this same debate with a reporter at the New York Post!
Old New York Post is dead, Deal with it!

...Ok, I'll stop.

...but it is dead for me at least, I use the web.
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Old August 21 2013, 10:11 PM   #257
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
There do seem to be a lot of people on both sides of the debate that think something is fundamentally wrong with people who don't share their opinion.
To be fair, this is not just a Trekkie thing. I've seen the same on comic-book message boards.
Honestly you can apply to pretty much anything people are involved in be politics, religion, book series, tv shows, and ect.
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Old August 21 2013, 10:17 PM   #258
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post

This may sound a little weird, but here goes: I say Spock's story in STXI is an allegory for a closeted homosexual coming out. He has emotions, which his people see as extremely distasteful. He can't supress them as well as they do, but he TRIES to live up to his rigid society's expectations of emotionlessness. He acts like he doesn't have them in public.
King Daniel, I think the explanation you came up with in your own mind is ultimately more interesting than the actual movie. Had the movie portrayed these events in this way -- had we actually seen Spock take Uhura, say, into a private corner and say, "I need to apologize for not having returned your affections... I realize now what I have been missing" -- that would have been, quite possibly, a fantastic scene.

But you and I have to invent such a backstory for ourselves, which we could just as easily have done without the help of the movie. (For my own part, while I was out it, I'd have toned down the lighting just to save my eyes from the strain.)

If we really are to have a new timeline, then the story needs to sell the viewer on the new and improved characters. It cannot rely on the old value propositions from 40 years ago. It can't paint Kirk to be a boorish amateur and then expect us to say, well, he's Kirk, he'll get away with it, he always skirts past the rules, look at his track record. Not if the story also expects us to see Spock return a kiss on his own accord, when his track record tells us that couldn't happen.

Greg Cox wrote:
And do we really want to see Quinto's Spock doggedly retrace the gradual evolution of Nimoy's Spock, step by bloody step, for the next forty years? Or maybe we can find a new way to explore Spock's dual nature--perhaps through a long-term relationship with a human woman. There's something we haven't seen before!
I would be very interested in seeing a rational interpretation of a new and unexplored side of the established character. Not an old and retreaded side of a completely different character wearing the same outfit. But the new format of these movies does not appear to want to make the time to explore any of the characters to any extent of depth. So when a movie simply throws out there that Spock and Uhura are an item, some viewers (e.g., King Daniel) can come up with really good, rational explanations for why and how, but others (e.g., myself) try and fail.

(I don't have any doubt that a certain novelist could conjure a brilliant chapter that fills in these details, and that as a result would be better than the entire film.)

DF "Uhura Approaches Spock. They Kiss. Insert Random Rationalization Here" Scott
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Old August 21 2013, 10:33 PM   #259
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

DFScott wrote: View Post
But you and I have to invent such a backstory for ourselves, which we could just as easily have done without the help of the movie. (For my own part, while I was out it, I'd have toned down the lighting just to save my eyes from the strain.)
I don't know about you, but I've been inventing backstory and reading others inventions for these characters for near forty-years now.

Star Trek is what it is and I find it hypocritical to blame Abrams and Company for following the general template that was laid down by Roddenberry and Company nearly fifty-years ago. So many of the details seem to have come from fanon and the novels and not the source material. "Keep it Vague", seemed to be the slogan of TOS (that is one of its charms, there is a large canvas for the imagination) and, honestly, I'm not sure we learned anymore about the characters in seventy-nine episodes than we did in the two Abrams films.
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Old August 22 2013, 02:59 AM   #260
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I guess you missed "Journey to Babel", "Amok Time", "Yesteryear" and the entirety of Star Trek: Enterprise?

Name one full-blooded Vulcan that exemplifies IDIC. Even Sarek shunned his own son for eighteen years. Why? For daring to explore a little of that infinite diversity rather than stay on Vulcan.
Surak. After all, he's the guy who invented the concept.
Fair enough in theory, although our only glimpses of the man himself are a dream-images from Spock's and Captain Archer. After all, Gene Roddenberry started something great despite not exactly living up to it's ideals himself.
Sarek didn't shun Spock for wanting to associate with non-Vulcans or go off-planet. He shunned Spock because:

A. Spock refused to follow in Sarek's footsteps in the field of diplomacy.

B. Spock refused to settle for the Vulcan Science Academy. Sarek saw that as Spock rejecting his Vulcan heritage and Vulcan ways.

C. Spock chose Starfleet. Sarek's objections to Starfleet were because sooner or later, Spock would be ordered to kill. Vulcan is a pacifist culture, and has been since the time of Surak. Sarek saw Spock as going against that - not necessarily that he would go nuts and kill for the hell of it, but that he would have to kill, period.
So, MASSIVELY FAILING at IDIC, then.
How about actually putting yourself in Original Sarek's shoes and actually thinking about it, instead of throwing all-caps at me?

Vulcan is a society of tradition. Evidently it's traditional for sons to follow their fathers in their fathers' careers, or at least general area. Spock chose not to do that. Therefore, friction ensues.

Sarek was genuinely baffled at Spock's insistence that he didn't want to attend the Vulcan Science Academy. He couldn't figure out what Spock could learn off-planet that he couldn't learn at the Academy.

Sarek, like many Vulcans, opposes killing. They oppose it to the point that they oppose any sort of military careers for their offspring. Spock chose not only to not become a diplomat, he chose to attend an off-planet institution of higher education. The fact that it was Starfleet Academy - a place that mostly prepares its students for careers in the military - was the last straw. Like Tevye in Fiddler On the Roof, who gave in to his two older daughters who flouted tradition, he simply could not bring himself to give in the third time. As Tevye says," There is no other hand!"

I get the impression that Sarek wouldn't have shunned Spock for 18 years if the first one or two were the only ways that Spock defied his father. But Starfleet was the dealbreaker.

And I repeat: Sarek's wives were human. If he were an inflexible bigot, he wouldn't have married them.

DFScott wrote: View Post
If we really are to have a new timeline, then the story needs to sell the viewer on the new and improved characters. It cannot rely on the old value propositions from 40 years ago. It can't paint Kirk to be a boorish amateur and then expect us to say, well, he's Kirk, he'll get away with it, he always skirts past the rules, look at his track record. Not if the story also expects us to see Spock return a kiss on his own accord, when his track record tells us that couldn't happen.
The problem is that the nuTrek characters are basically fresh out of the Academy. They don't have a track record!
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Old August 22 2013, 03:30 AM   #261
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Timewalker wrote: View Post

Sarek, like many Vulcans, opposes killing. They oppose it to the point that they oppose any sort of military careers for their offspring.
Eh? When was that ever established? In "Journey to Babel," Spock says explicitly that his father is perfectly capable of killing, coldly and logically, if necessary.

And that's the episode that introduced Sarek. I don't recall him raising any objections to the military nature of Starfleet at all. The issue just seemed to be that Spock had defied his father's wishes regarding his career.

Vulcans can be quite ruthless when they need to be. Look at T'Pring or Valeris . . . or even Spock on occasion. Don't forget, he spent most of the second pilot urging Kirk to kill Gary Mitchell before it was too late . . . .
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Old August 22 2013, 03:48 AM   #262
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Just because Sarek is capable of killing if he has a logical reason for it, that doesn't mean he's not opposed to it.

I'm a pacifist by nature, but I'd kill to protect my family, including if the threat was to my cats.
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Old August 22 2013, 03:55 AM   #263
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

IDIC and a tradition bound society would seem to be incompatible. Most traditional societies aren't very accepting of outsiders and their customs. Of course in the real world IDIC was a late addition to the Vulcans of TOS as was Surak.

Is there any evidence that Vulcan children traditionally go into their parents profession? Sarek was a diplomat. Spock chose science as his profession. (becoming a diplomat later in life) Tuvok is in Starfleet, while Tuvok's son is apparently becoming a musician. T'Pol's mother is a teacher while T'Pol is in the military.

Journey To Babel wrote:
KIRK: I take it that Spock disagreed with his father on a choice of career.
AMANDA: My husband has nothing against Starfleet. But Vulcans believe that peace should not depend on force.
KIRK: Starfleet force is used only as a last resort. We're an instrument of civilisation. And it's a better opportunity for a scientist to study the universe than he can get at the Vulcan Science Academy.
AMANDA: Perhaps. But Sarek wanted Spock to follow his teachings, as Sarek followed the teachings of his own father.
KIRK: They are both stubborn.
My read of this says Sarek wanted Spock to to follow the Vulcan teachings but not necessarily his specific profession. Which doesn't come across as very IDIC.

Does Sarek oppose killing? We know Spock doesn't, as he advocated killing Gary Mitchell.

Of course when we meet Sarek in JTB, he is accused of murder.

Journey To Babel wrote:
KIRK: How was he killed?
MCCOY: His neck was broken. By an expert.
KIRK: Explain.
MCCOY: Well, from the nature and location of the break, I'd say the killer knew exactly where to apply pressure to snap the neck instantly.
KIRK: Who aboard would have that knowledge?
SPOCK: Vulcans. On Vulcan, the method is called tal-shaya. It was considered a merciful form of execution in ancient times.
KIRK: Spock. A short time ago, I broke up an argument between Gav and your father.
SPOCK: Indeed, Captain? Interesting.
MCCOY: Interesting? Spock, do you realise that makes your father the most likely suspect?
SPOCK: Vulcans do not approve of violence.
KIRK: You're saying he couldn't have done it?
SPOCK: No, Captain. I'm merely saying it would be illogical to kill without reason.
KIRK: But if he had a reason, could he have done it?
SPOCK: If there were a reason, my father is quite capable of killing. Logically and efficiently
So, while Vulcans do not approve of violence, they will kill.
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Old August 22 2013, 05:34 AM   #264
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
In the 80's novel Vulcan's Glory, set when Spock is first assigned to Pike's Enterprise and written by D.C. Fontana, Spock has a rather casual affair with a Vulcan officer. He's portrayed as having emotions but keeping them hidden them as per Vulcan standards. This is quite similar to the Spock of the new movies.
But, but, but... what the hell would D.C. Fontana know about how the real Spock is supposed to behave?


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Old August 22 2013, 07:47 AM   #265
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
IDIC and a tradition bound society would seem to be incompatible. Most traditional societies aren't very accepting of outsiders and their customs. Of course in the real world IDIC was a late addition to the Vulcans of TOS as was Surak.

Is there any evidence that Vulcan children traditionally go into their parents profession? Sarek was a diplomat. Spock chose science as his profession. (becoming a diplomat later in life) Tuvok is in Starfleet, while Tuvok's son is apparently becoming a musician. T'Pol's mother is a teacher while T'Pol is in the military.

Journey To Babel wrote:
KIRK: I take it that Spock disagreed with his father on a choice of career.
AMANDA: My husband has nothing against Starfleet. But Vulcans believe that peace should not depend on force.
KIRK: Starfleet force is used only as a last resort. We're an instrument of civilisation. And it's a better opportunity for a scientist to study the universe than he can get at the Vulcan Science Academy.
AMANDA: Perhaps. But Sarek wanted Spock to follow his teachings, as Sarek followed the teachings of his own father.
KIRK: They are both stubborn.
My read of this says Sarek wanted Spock to to follow the Vulcan teachings but not necessarily his specific profession. Which doesn't come across as very IDIC.

Does Sarek oppose killing? We know Spock doesn't, as he advocated killing Gary Mitchell.

Of course when we meet Sarek in JTB, he is accused of murder.

Journey To Babel wrote:
KIRK: How was he killed?
MCCOY: His neck was broken. By an expert.
KIRK: Explain.
MCCOY: Well, from the nature and location of the break, I'd say the killer knew exactly where to apply pressure to snap the neck instantly.
KIRK: Who aboard would have that knowledge?
SPOCK: Vulcans. On Vulcan, the method is called tal-shaya. It was considered a merciful form of execution in ancient times.
KIRK: Spock. A short time ago, I broke up an argument between Gav and your father.
SPOCK: Indeed, Captain? Interesting.
MCCOY: Interesting? Spock, do you realise that makes your father the most likely suspect?
SPOCK: Vulcans do not approve of violence.
KIRK: You're saying he couldn't have done it?
SPOCK: No, Captain. I'm merely saying it would be illogical to kill without reason.
KIRK: But if he had a reason, could he have done it?
SPOCK: If there were a reason, my father is quite capable of killing. Logically and efficiently
So, while Vulcans do not approve of violence, they will kill.
Some of your post contradicts itself. While Vulcan children don't ALWAYS follow their parents' careers, it's reasonable to say that a significant number of Vulcan parents expect them to, or at least expect their children not to choose something bizarre, violent, or dishonorable.

And read my previous post: Pacifists do not approve of violence, but unless said pacifist is also Jesus or Gandhi (for example), he/she is very likely to have some point where they would kill. How many of us here would not kill, if it was the only way to protect ourselves or a loved one? A human would use the term "breaking point" and Vulcans term it as a "logical reason", but it essentially means the same thing.

Spock advocated killing Gary Mitchell, because he could see no other way out. It was a logical reason.
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Old August 22 2013, 07:52 AM   #266
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

DFScott wrote:
Not if the story also expects us to see Spock return a kiss on his own accord, when his track record tells us that couldn't happen.
Does it conclusively? I don't believe so.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote:
So, MASSIVELY FAILING at IDIC, then.
How about actually putting yourself in Original Sarek's shoes and actually thinking about it, instead of throwing all-caps at me?

Vulcan is a society of tradition. Evidently it's traditional for sons to follow their fathers in their fathers' careers, or at least general area. Spock chose not to do that. Therefore, friction ensues.

Sarek was genuinely baffled at Spock's insistence that he didn't want to attend the Vulcan Science Academy. He couldn't figure out what Spock could learn off-planet that he couldn't learn at the Academy.

Sarek, like many Vulcans, opposes killing. They oppose it to the point that they oppose any sort of military careers for their offspring. Spock chose not only to not become a diplomat, he chose to attend an off-planet institution of higher education. The fact that it was Starfleet Academy - a place that mostly prepares its students for careers in the military - was the last straw. Like Tevye in Fiddler On the Roof, who gave in to his two older daughters who flouted tradition, he simply could not bring himself to give in the third time. As Tevye says," There is no other hand!"

I get the impression that Sarek wouldn't have shunned Spock for 18 years if the first one or two were the only ways that Spock defied his father. But Starfleet was the dealbreaker.

And I repeat: Sarek's wives were human. If he were an inflexible bigot, he wouldn't have married them.
So Sarek practices Partial Diversity in Partial Combinations, then? If you put tradition ahead of IDIC, then you're failing at IDIC, no matter how many humans you marry.

The Vulcan people have high ideals, but much like many humans today who claim to worship a benevolent God, they fail to live up to those ideals.
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Old August 22 2013, 08:22 AM   #267
Timewalker
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

My point is that Sarek is compulsively inflexible when we first meet him, but he's not a bigot.

As for hypocrisy... my own mother was horrified when I told her I'm atheist. And she's one of the most bigoted people I know. I'm glad I didn't follow in her footsteps, because I would have turned into the kind of person my present self would have despised.

At least Sarek found redemption and reconciliation later in life.
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Old August 22 2013, 10:21 AM   #268
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
The NuTrek Vulcans contradict themselves, completely forgetting about IDIC.
What does IDIC have to do with contradiction ?

Admiral2 wrote: View Post
Okay. My main problem with new timeline is the guy who created it
Maybe the fact that it's him made you dislike it. Perhaps then you should ignore the fact that it's him, and watch it for its own sake.

Abrams sycophants
Maybe you haven't considered it because of your bias, but some people here simply like the movie.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Honestly you can apply to pretty much anything people are involved in be politics, religion, book series, tv shows, and ect.
Yes, it's one of the more annoying human qualities. We just don't like people who think differently.
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Old August 22 2013, 11:34 AM   #269
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

nightwind1 wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
In the 80's novel Vulcan's Glory, set when Spock is first assigned to Pike's Enterprise and written by D.C. Fontana, Spock has a rather casual affair with a Vulcan officer. He's portrayed as having emotions but keeping them hidden them as per Vulcan standards. This is quite similar to the Spock of the new movies.
But, but, but... what the hell would D.C. Fontana know about how the real Spock is supposed to behave?


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Old August 22 2013, 12:45 PM   #270
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
My point is that Sarek is compulsively inflexible when we first meet him, but he's not a bigot.
But who ever tried to argue that Sarek was a bigot? We only said, like Spock, and like the reboot Spock, Sarek aims high, but falls slightly short of Vulcan ideals. Vulcans are ultimately more human than they realize, especially in Spock's family.

Therefore, I personally see no reason why any of the supposedly "human" characteristics in reboot Spock should come as a surprise. These were already present in Spock and in other Vulcans like Sarek, and having lost his entire planet and his mother, there is no reason that reboot Spock shouldn't be a little mindful of his emotions. And, as Into Darkness has shown, he reigned that back quickly after the Nero incident (although, sadly, suppressing emotions through self-sacrificing, self-destructive behaviour).
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