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Old August 21 2013, 12:16 AM   #76
Melakon
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Neelix is the Antichrist.
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Old August 21 2013, 12:36 AM   #77
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
Irishman wrote: View Post
Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
"Reality" and "biblical prophesies" are mutually exclusive terms.
Perhaps, to you.
If not to you, too, then we have a basic disagreement as to the definition of the term "reality".
Yes. We do. But that's okay.
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Old August 21 2013, 10:51 AM   #78
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Why did God kick Adam, Eve and the Snake out of paradise? Whether you interpret the text literal, as a metaphor or an analogy, the decisive essence remains: Because he didn't want to be in the company of people that were unwilling to assume responsibility for their actions, and, worse, had no problem to see somebody else suffer for their mistakes.
Then God must have a hard time living with himself, since by that account he created faulty humans, and then blamed them for his own mistakes.
Correct quote from Gene Roddenberry (who also didn't understand the symbolic meaning of Eucharist and assumed this to be a cannibalistic ritual).

That used to be my interpretation of events, too, but after taking a bite from the "apple" the protagonists had reached a higher level of consciousness and therefore had to face a test of character - and failed.

Since you would apparently criticize God if he had brainwashed / reprogrammed the protagonists (which apparently had free will) he instead send the protagonists into the world to learn (the meaning of life, IMHO), hoping they become able to fix this appalling character flaw (the other one, IMHO) which brings us to

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
"Do to others as you would have them do to you" (Luke 6:31)
(I think it's fair to say that nobody wants to be blamed or held accountable for things she or he didn't do?)

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Ridiculous conceptions like "chief atheist" aside, that's exactly the point.
Isn't Mr. Dawkins the prominent spokesperson of Atheism?

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
The Christian message is "treat others as you would like to be treated": the idea of people having different wants or needs is out of question. Your values are everybody's values, and if people don't follow them, then they are actively rejecting your values, instead of simply following their own. Your religion is the solid centre of the universe, and everybody moves in relation to it: towards, against, or around it. You want to be a good Christian, so everybody must want to be a good Christian. I mean, who wouldn't want that, right? Wrong.

The humanist message, on the other hand, is: treat others as they want to be treated. Take an interest in people. Allow for differences. Be kind, but don't be overbearing. Treat them with respect. Don't ever think you know what people want or need. Or, more succinctly, "don't be a douche".
I'm sorry, I don't see the essential difference and why you are trying to make something that's easy to understand and grasp into something unnecessarily complicated (apparently, neither did Mr. Dawkins see the need for that ).

For me it's the essential content that matters and not the wrapping paper (i.e. words). YMMV

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Old August 21 2013, 11:48 AM   #79
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

some of that essential content from the bible:

Titus 2:9
"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them"

1 Peter 2:18
"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."

Col 3:22
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord."

Eph 6:5
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."

so would you be happy to see uhura as kirk's slave?

gods pretty keen on slavery. or is all that one of those bits of bible christians are allowed to overlook because its outdated and stupid while using other equally hideous bits as some sort of moral justification?
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Old August 21 2013, 03:46 PM   #80
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Gene Roddenberry (who also didn't understand the symbolic meaning of Eucharist and assumed this to be a cannibalistic ritual).
I guess you never heard of sarcasm.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
That used to be my interpretation of events, too, but after taking a bite from the "apple" the protagonists had reached a higher level of consciousness and therefore had to face a test of character - and failed.
And if he hadn't tasted the God-forbidden knowledge, then he would have never reached the "higher level of consciousness". Which means God never wanted us to achieve full sentience. (Or he wanted that, and used reverse psychology to fool a dumb ape into a human being. Which is kinda idiotic.)

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Ridiculous conceptions like "chief atheist" aside, that's exactly the point.
Isn't Mr. Dawkins the prominent spokesperson of Atheism?
No such thing. He's a somehow famous scientist and scientific writer who sometimes speak against religion. Dawkins is no more "chief atheist" than Christopher Hitchens, George Carlin, Voltaire, Epicurus, or any number of smart, opinionated thinkers through history. Atheism is not an organized religion.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
The Christian message is "treat others as you would like to be treated": the idea of people having different wants or needs is out of question. (...)
The humanist message, on the other hand, is: treat others as they want to be treated.
I'm sorry, I don't see the essential difference
I know. That's the point.
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Old August 21 2013, 04:29 PM   #81
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Or, there's the variation on the Golden Rule: Do one unto others, before they do one unto you.
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Old August 21 2013, 04:54 PM   #82
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

That's the Iron Rule.
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Old August 21 2013, 11:58 PM   #83
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
The Christian message is "treat others as you would like to be treated": the idea of people having different wants or needs is out of question. Your values are everybody's values, and if people don't follow them, then they are actively rejecting your values, instead of simply following their own. Your religion is the solid centre of the universe, and everybody moves in relation to it: towards, against, or around it. You want to be a good Christian, so everybody must want to be a good Christian. I mean, who wouldn't want that, right? Wrong.

The humanist message, on the other hand, is: treat others as they want to be treated. Take an interest in people. Allow for differences. Be kind, but don't be overbearing. Treat them with respect. Don't ever think you know what people want or need. Or, more succinctly, "don't be a douche".
I'm sorry, but you're making a distinction without a difference in the way 99.9% of people understand and mean that quote. "Treat others as you would like to be treated" can be just as succinctly summed up as "don't be a douche" (or in the immortal words of the Prophets Bill and Ted - "Be awesome to each other").

As you say, you can't know from the outset what people want or need - but you can know that you wouldn't want them to be a dick to you, so you show them kindness and respect and allow the differences you would hope they allow for you. It ties right in with "love your neighbor as yourself." (The real problem is that both assume people care for themselves - it doesn't have much directly to offer the disconsolate, the depressed, and the self-loathing.)

junxon wrote: View Post
some of that essential content from the bible:
Is this really gonna turn into some sort of proof-texting thing? You realize that the abolition movement in the US had massive religious support, just as the pro-slavery position did?
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Old August 22 2013, 12:09 AM   #84
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

yes i do realize, it was just because someone upthread seems to believe that biblical prophesies are reality so i thought ''what would richard dawkins do?'' and decided it would be good to point out something reprehensible from the bible.
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Old August 22 2013, 12:39 AM   #85
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Truly had not planned on posting anything further but saw this and just couldn't resist. Apparently the rumors of NASA's death have been greatly exaggerated.
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Old August 22 2013, 12:41 AM   #86
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Kestrel wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
The Christian message is "treat others as you would like to be treated": the idea of people having different wants or needs is out of question. (...)

The humanist message, on the other hand, is: treat others as they want to be treated.
I'm sorry, but you're making a distinction without a difference in the way 99.9% of people understand and mean that quote.
Well, being pedant in religious discussions is kinda my shtick.

What I wanted was to stress the point that the "Christian message" is one of moral absolutes. The humanist message is one of ethical relativism. (Which is not necessarily one of amorality or ethical nihilism, but I know you know that.)
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Old August 22 2013, 02:08 AM   #87
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

So what I hear you saying is, you'd fit right in with the fundygelicals in religious discussion? runs

For me, I'm willing to accept "Don't be a douche" as an absolute moral principal - even if I screw up, of course. I think if everybody had that as their only absolute, we'd do okay.
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Old August 22 2013, 02:17 AM   #88
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Kestrel wrote: View Post
So what I hear you saying is, you'd fit right in with the fundygelicals in religious discussion? runs
Oh yes. I have so much fun with them. Too bad they usually stop talking to me after a while.
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Old August 22 2013, 02:25 AM   #89
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

I used to get Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and some Spanish-speaking missionaries come by and try to save my soul. Since I'm a preacher's kid, and know what I believe, I used to banter with them and listen to the pitch. Then I'd tell them they're wasting their time on me. Eventually word must have gotten around, because I was never bothered again on their trips through the apartment complex.
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Old August 22 2013, 02:26 AM   #90
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

^^ Probably your raw sexual magnetism making them question things too much.
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