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Old August 20 2013, 09:43 PM   #16
Timo
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Re: Flagship

The press coverage apparently was for Kirk, not the ship. And Kirk was aboard only because Starfleet had named the ship Enterprise. So we face various possibilities:

1) Starfleet named the newest flagship the Enterprise as a good omen of sorts, and Kirk and the associated good PR came as a bonus.
2) Starfleet named the direct successor to the E-A the E-B, intending to replace all Constitutions with Excelsiors while keeping the names; again, Kirk and the associated good PR came as a bonus. Neither the E-A nor the E-B was a flagship in any sense, though.
3) Starfleet named a new, big but more or less random ship the Enterprise in order to get Kirk and the good PR, which the expensive and behind-the-schedule project desperately needed. The E-B may or may not have been a flagship in one or more of the senses of the word.

We don't have any evidence that the E-B would have been the successor of the E-A in any actual technological or tactical sense, so #2 isn't my personal favorite. I'm sort of leaning toward #3 here, as Kirk's presence does look like a cheap gimmick, and while the E-B is big, she's not exceptionally big (say, compared to the Excelsior) or otherwise obviously flagship-like.

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Old August 21 2013, 02:12 AM   #17
PhoenixClass
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Re: Flagship

I find #2 to be overly complicated. Keeping a ship name and registry number is a sign of special recognition that would be diluted by simply keeping ship names while upgrading classes. Enterprise had a special history which is why it was honored by keeping the name and registry through various incarnations.

Afterall, ship classes are phased in and out as new technologies are developed but names are not usually repeated.
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Old August 21 2013, 07:59 AM   #18
MacLeod
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Re: Flagship

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
I find #2 to be overly complicated. Keeping a ship name and registry number is a sign of special recognition that would be diluted by simply keeping ship names while upgrading classes. Enterprise had a special history which is why it was honored by keeping the name and registry through various incarnations.

Afterall, ship classes are phased in and out as new technologies are developed but names are not usually repeated.
Sure they are we've seen a couple of Defiant's and Hoods in Star Trek.

And what about the fact that they have been fifteen ships in the Royal Navy to bear the name Enterprise?
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Old August 21 2013, 08:41 AM   #19
CommishSleer
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Re: Flagship

Maybe the Enterprise was regarded as the flagship because at the time of each of her incarnations she was the best or equal best ship in the fleet.
And presumably an Enterprise had been in existence since the beginning of the Federation almost continuously. Maybe thats not the same for other ships.
Only in TNG and the reboot have I ever heard her referred to as the flagship.
Although in ENT she was the only ship for a while.
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Old August 21 2013, 01:28 PM   #20
The Wormhole
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Re: Flagship

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Although in ENT she was the only ship for a while.
No, Starfleet had other ships which were in service at the same time as NX-01 and before it. It was the only one capable of warp 5 for the four years after it was built and before Columbia was launched. But Starfleet did have other starships, they just didn't do warp 5.

Also worth mentioning, the MU NX-01 is referred to as the Terran Empire's flagship.
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Old August 21 2013, 03:07 PM   #21
CommishSleer
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Re: Flagship

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Although in ENT she was the only ship for a while.
No, Starfleet had other ships which were in service at the same time as NX-01 and before it. It was the only one capable of warp 5 for the four years after it was built and before Columbia was launched. But Starfleet did have other starships, they just didn't do warp 5.

Also worth mentioning, the MU NX-01 is referred to as the Terran Empire's flagship.
OK so there was no Enterprise in Starfleet before the NX-01 Enterprise while there were other (lame) ships. LOL.

There goes my theory making Enterprise the name of the 'flagship' because its been in service continuously.
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Old August 21 2013, 03:32 PM   #22
T'Girl
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Re: Flagship

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
OK so there was no Enterprise in Starfleet before the NX-01 Enterprise while there were other (lame) ships. LOL.
Did not Archer display a image of a Human built ring ship on his wall? There was a similar image on the rec room wall in TMP, Decker indicated to the Ilia-bot that it was named Enterprise.

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Old August 21 2013, 05:51 PM   #23
CoveTom
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Re: Flagship

MacLeod wrote: View Post
PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
I find #2 to be overly complicated. Keeping a ship name and registry number is a sign of special recognition that would be diluted by simply keeping ship names while upgrading classes. Enterprise had a special history which is why it was honored by keeping the name and registry through various incarnations.

Afterall, ship classes are phased in and out as new technologies are developed but names are not usually repeated.
Sure they are we've seen a couple of Defiant's and Hoods in Star Trek.

And what about the fact that they have been fifteen ships in the Royal Navy to bear the name Enterprise?
There have been multiple ships which had names reused. But as far as we know, with the exception of one brief mention in "Where Silence Has Lease" from TNG, we've never seen a case other than the Enterprise where the registry number was reused. Well, okay, the very last few episodes of DS9 with the Defiant, but that was only because it was the final few episodes and they didn't want to spend the money to refilm all their stock shots. We know that "really" the new Defiant would at least have been changed from an NX prefix to an NCC prefix since they were now production-line models.

Therefore, it seems that the registry number being preserved is the thing that makes the Enterprise unique.
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Old August 21 2013, 06:15 PM   #24
T'Girl
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Re: Flagship

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
how the Enterprise went from being just another starship in TOS to the flagship of the Federation four generations later.
Of course it wasn't the same ship, debatably the ship that was named the Enterprise D if give a different name and hull number would still have been the "Flagship of the Federation."

Whatever Galaxy class was launch at that time would have been carried that title.

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Certainly there's strong evidence to imply the B was the flagship, after all, it had the big launch ceremony with all the media coverage. .
We only saw several reporters, today most US Navy launches have some reporters present, and usually hundreds of people (sometimes thousands) in attendance. There are speeches, bands, etc.

In comparison the launch of the Enterprise B was pretty low key.





.

Last edited by T'Girl; August 22 2013 at 08:52 AM. Reason: B for C
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Old August 21 2013, 06:28 PM   #25
The Wormhole
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Re: Flagship

T'Girl wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
OK so there was no Enterprise in Starfleet before the NX-01 Enterprise while there were other (lame) ships. LOL.
Did not Archer display a image of a Human built ring ship on his wall? There was a similar image on the rec room wall in TMP, Decker indicated to the Ilia-bot that it was named Enterprise.

No. Archer's ready room displays the wooden sailing ship, the aircraft carrier, the space shuttle and the NX-01. The ringship was displayed in the bar in First Flight.
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Old August 21 2013, 06:29 PM   #26
Lance
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Re: Flagship

Again I do like all of Timo's suggestions above and I do also think #3 sounds plausible.

Here's another question: if Ent-B ever were the flagship, it does beg a question of "what makes it that special"? I mean, the Constituion Enterprise was going to be mothballed in STIII, so the name Enterprise evidently meant nothing to Starfleet at the time (and certainly there's no indication in the first three movies - or even in TFF and TUC come to that - that the Connie Enterprises are held in any particular high regard by Starfleet). USS Excelisor would seem to be a more logical flagship too, given its obvious technological advances over the Connie Enterprise. But we all tend to assume that the 1701-B at least was the flagship of the fleet. It's hard to make the case for the 1701-A being the same as it was really just an old rust bucket that bearly held itself together in TFF, staffed by a geriatric crew who bearly held themselves together in TUC.

... unless... maybe a new Enterprise had been on the cards for a while? The Excelisor project was evidently centered around one ship, but that doesn't mean plans hadn't already been drawn up for a second one (named Enterprise). And maybe the idea was that this new Enterprise would be the flagship... a refreshing of the Enterprise "brand" with a new crew... while still carrying the great name, and also benefitting from the good publicity of being broadly associated with the legendary James T. Kirk? Without, you know, actually being commanded by him? Maybe 1701-B was the first Enterprise to be a flagship... as a kind of publicity drive on the part of Starfleet Command.
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Old August 21 2013, 08:12 PM   #27
T'Girl
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Re: Flagship

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
The ringship was displayed in the bar in First Flight.
That's right, so the ring ship type of starship existed prior to the NX-01. Either the ring-Enterprise preceded the NX-01 (more likely), or it was a subsequent starship after the NX-01 was decommissioned (less likely).

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Old August 21 2013, 10:23 PM   #28
Timo
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Re: Flagship

Adding a nuance to that, perhaps the ringship was operated by a different organization altogether - allowing it to be parallel to UE Starfleet's Enterprise if need be?

Sure they are we've seen a couple of Defiant's and Hoods in Star Trek.
An interesting question in this context is whether some Defiant or Hood has been immediately followed by a vessel of that name but more modern class.

There's a big gap between the Constitution class Defiant and the Defiant class one, but we know there was a Constitution class Hood and then an Excelsior class one. Perhaps the latter pair represents a "continuity of naming" of sorts, with the refitted former Hood retiring just prior to the naming of the latter Hood?

The photographic model of the Excelsior class Hood carried a low registry number, NCC-2541, that would support the "immediate succession" theory. Okudagrams and a later CGI model support a different registry, NCC-42296, speaking against such immediateness. But perhaps there were two Excelsior class Hoods? (It'd be a bit odd for the older to be replaced by the latter during TNG's first season, of course - and there's no onscreen evidence for the "actual" existence of the older one.)

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Old August 21 2013, 11:00 PM   #29
TheSubCommander
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Re: Flagship

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Nobody's disputing that literally, only the D was referred to as the "flagship" onscreen. But the extremely brief onscreen lives of the B and C leave plenty of room for conjecture as to how the Enterprise went from being just another starship in TOS to the flagship of the Federation four generations later. It would be extremely silly to assume that we know all there is to know about the service and missions of the B and C based on seeing only the first day of service of the former and the last day of service of the latter....

Of course nothing canon confirms what I am about to say, but at least during the Enterprise-B's time, if there were a flagship, I don't know if the Enterprise-B would be it, at least under Harriman.

With the retirement of Kirk, the Enterprise-A, and most of her crew, probably the most celebrated captain at that time would have been Captain Sulu. And since the Excelsior was the first of its class, I would tend to think if any ship at that time was going to be a flagship, it would be the Excelsior.

As for the Enterprise C, it may have had some kind of posthumous status, but we don't know enough about it or her captain to know if it were a flagship.
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Old August 21 2013, 11:06 PM   #30
TheSubCommander
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Re: Flagship

Lance wrote: View Post
Again I do like all of Timo's suggestions above and I do also think #3 sounds plausible.

Here's another question: if Ent-B ever were the flagship, it does beg a question of "what makes it that special"? I mean, the Constituion Enterprise was going to be mothballed in STIII, so the name Enterprise evidently meant nothing to Starfleet at the time (and certainly there's no indication in the first three movies - or even in TFF and TUC come to that - that the Connie Enterprises are held in any particular high regard by Starfleet). USS Excelisor would seem to be a more logical flagship too, given its obvious technological advances over the Connie Enterprise. But we all tend to assume that the 1701-B at least was the flagship of the fleet. It's hard to make the case for the 1701-A being the same as it was really just an old rust bucket that bearly held itself together in TFF, staffed by a geriatric crew who bearly held themselves together in TUC.

... unless... maybe a new Enterprise had been on the cards for a while? The Excelisor project was evidently centered around one ship, but that doesn't mean plans hadn't already been drawn up for a second one (named Enterprise). And maybe the idea was that this new Enterprise would be the flagship... a refreshing of the Enterprise "brand" with a new crew... while still carrying the great name, and also benefitting from the good publicity of being broadly associated with the legendary James T. Kirk? Without, you know, actually being commanded by him? Maybe 1701-B was the first Enterprise to be a flagship... as a kind of publicity drive on the part of Starfleet Command.
Well, the Enterprise-Be need not be a flag ship to be a celebrated ship. However, that said, the only distinctions we can say canonically about the Enterprise-B, other than being the 4th Enterprise if you count the NX-01, is that it was the first Enterprise without Kirk in command, since Kirk assumed command of the NCC-1701, and was the Enterprise Kirk was "killed" on.
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