RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,705
Posts: 5,431,766
Members: 24,834
Currently online: 460
Newest member: kamkaran


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Future of Trek

Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 21 2013, 02:30 PM   #226
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
By Vulcan standards (not Sarek's standards or Amanda's or Spock's, Vulcan in general) that IS a very noticeable, unacceptable breach of decorum and manners. Any regular Vulcan would be correct in wondering if nuSpock were mentally ill, for engaging in such behavior.
No "normal Vulcans" were present. The Spock in this timeframe is the same one who smiled after touching a vibrating leaf and shouts "the women!!!!" when two female crewmates disappear. I don't think Spock at this point in his lives was overly bothered by Vulcan "decorum and manners". Even Spock later in his life in the PrimeUniverse was known to break decorum. Some of his best scenes are when he does. He does the strict Vulcan thing to get on humans' nerves.
Just because no normal Vulcans were present, that doesn't change Vulcan custom.

.
Spock has never been one to follow Vulcan "custom".His story in TMP is pretty much about the pure Vulcan way not being for him.
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21 2013, 02:53 PM   #227
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

DFScott wrote: View Post
King Daniel and Greg, I think I understand your points, and correct me if I'm misstating them: You're happy for a character who appears to have overcome a severe handicap, and now he can move on and be a more well-rounded person. He no longer has to be defined by a disability.
I never saw Spock's Vulcanness as a disability. That's an interesting take.
I suppose, speaking on behalf of actual people who have ever had even a slight disability and then overcame it, that does make some sense.

But let's be fair: Here's a character in whom some of us have invested nearly a half-century of interest, and one of the reasons has been being privileged to watch him overcome, by fits and starts, a personal psychological disability. He was incapable of expressing romantic love. Oh, he's certainly capable of emotion at some level, and his repression of emotion is a personal, daily choice rather than some missing circuitry. He certainly wanted to express romantic love, as he directly implied in his apology to Christine Chapel.
I think we see Spock's character very differently.
Whether he was capable of love is open to interpretation. I'll never find the link now, but years ago I read a quote from Gene Roddenberry, where he specualted that Spock may have had a romantic affair at Starfleet Academy which ended badly. It immediately came to mind when I saw that Spock and Uhura were together in the 2009 movie, although I have no idea if the writers were even aware of Roddenberry's comment.

In the 80's novel Vulcan's Glory, set when Spock is first assigned to Pike's Enterprise and written by D.C. Fontana, Spock has a rather casual affair with a Vulcan officer. He's portrayed as having emotions but keeping them hidden them as per Vulcan standards. This is quite similar to the Spock of the new movies.

Conversely, in the more recent (2010) Inception by S.D. Perry, set between "The Cage" and TOS, Spock is portrayed as being literally unable to return Leila Kolrami's affections. He's portrayed as being incapable of a full range of emotions, owing to his Vulcan upbringing. A lot like the Spock you describe.

Which version of Spock is the "real" one? I guess each to their own. I believe that Zach Quinto's Spock is a legitamate interpretation of Leonard Nimoy's original, although I can see your frustration that it differs from how you envisioned him.
But even when slightly intoxicated (or the metaphysical equivalent), he was reduced to a babbling puddle of tears. When heavily intoxicated, sure, Jill Ireland became the love of his live in three seconds. Yet the side of his character that was revealed in that episode completely and successfully repressed the part of Spock that was devoted to his duty and that was honorable as a man, in the same way that his "honor-side" had successfully repressed his sexual urges. Only through being humiliated by Kirk did he recover his memory of how to repress the feeling of being humiliated, and his honorable side return.

Now, over the years, various incidents (among them, death and rebirth) gave the man opportunities to reconcile his two halves. And it was good to watch that process happen. We appreciated the "personal growth," to borrow Daniel's phrase.

For a rewritten version of the story to rewind history and say all that personal trauma and trial and reconciliation and doubt and grief were unnecessary, and the right woman's kiss cleared everything up and things are now hunky-dory, is to devalue the previous storyline. It doesn't eliminate it from our history, but it does sorta say, "Ah, well, who cares?"
But it's not Uhura that "cures" him at all. This is something I posted in the Spock/Uhura thread over in XI+, about Spock's story arc in STXI:

This may sound a little weird, but here goes: I say Spock's story in STXI is an allegory for a closeted homosexual coming out. He has emotions, which his people see as extremely distasteful. He can't supress them as well as they do, but he TRIES to live up to his rigid society's expectations of emotionlessness. He acts like he doesn't have them in public.

Uhura, she's his secret release for his emotions. Their relationship is an improper and secret student-teacher one, surrogate for a secret gay one.

After his mother died and his world destroyed, Spock cracks, and "comes out" to his father (Amanda always knew, and didn't care, "whatever you do, you will always have a proud mother"), saying this is it, he can't bottle this shit up anymore, he has emotions and that's that. And Sarek says not to try, and that he's proud of him.

Spock and Uhura smooch on the transporter pad in front of everyone, Spock uses Uhura's "secret" first name. He's out now, being what he really is and wants to be, and not what his society expects.


...that's what me, a straight guy, saw. Am I the only one?


Put another way: At one level, hypothetically, it might be interesting to have rebooted a character named "Ironside" as a detective who, after being shot, underwent a life-saving operation, overcame paralysis, and now stands upright and jogs every morning. We'd be happy for him if we got to see the recovery process -- if someone were to tell that story and make it interesting and personal. But to presume the story is already told is to cheat the viewer, as well as to effectively declare the recovery process itself (the "personal growth") unimportant.

DF "Mark, Get Me Out of This Flamin' Chair!" Scott
There was a moment at the end of XI, when both Spocks were talking and the elder said to the younger, "Put aside logic. Do what feels right." - I thought it was HUGE. Spock's been through so much termoil over the decades trying to reconcile his human and Vulcan halves and trying to live the like a Vulcan, and here he is telling his past self that maybe the path he chose wasn't the best way.

Is the young Spock "cured"? Nope. He tried not feeling in Into Darkness because emotion = pain and people important to him kept dying. That ended in an Incredible Hulk rampage.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21 2013, 02:58 PM   #228
Bry_Sinclair
Commodore
 
Bry_Sinclair's Avatar
 
Location: Along the border of Talarian space
Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

The NuTrek Vulcans contradict themselves, completely forgetting about IDIC.

In the Prime Universe I never got the impression the Spock was shunned (although in his birth scene in TFF Sarek does comment on his being so human, but seeing as how that is just a crap film I think we can gloss over it).
__________________
Avatar: Captain Susanna Leijten, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron
Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)
Bry_Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21 2013, 03:18 PM   #229
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

I guess you missed "Journey to Babel", "Amok Time", "Yesteryear" and the entirety of Star Trek: Enterprise?

Name one full-blooded Vulcan that exemplifies IDIC. Even Sarek shunned his own son for eighteen years. Why? For daring to explore a little of that infinite diversity rather than stay on Vulcan.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3

Last edited by King Daniel Into Darkness; August 21 2013 at 03:28 PM.
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21 2013, 03:24 PM   #230
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
His story in TMP is pretty much about the pure Vulcan way not being for him.
People seem pissed that Abrams didn't take eighty-hours to get to that point in what is likely a trilogy of films that will have a total runtime of six-hours!
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21 2013, 03:26 PM   #231
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
The NuTrek Vulcans contradict themselves, completely forgetting about IDIC.

In the Prime Universe I never got the impression the Spock was shunned...
Huh?

All you have to do is watch Amok Time and Yesteryear to know that what you state simply isn't true.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21 2013, 03:28 PM   #232
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I guess you missed "Journey to Babel", "Yesteryear" and the entirety of Star Trek: Enterprise?

Name one full-blooded Vulcan that exemplifies IDIC. Even Sarek shunned his own son for eighteen years. Why? For daring to explore a little of that infinite diversity rather than stay on Vulcan.
Tuvok. He might have been annoyed when the likes of Neelix and the EMH poked him about being so logical, but he accepted and advocated diversity.
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21 2013, 03:29 PM   #233
anh165
Commander
 
Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
His story in TMP is pretty much about the pure Vulcan way not being for him.
People seem pissed that Abrams didn't take eighty-hours to get to that point in what is likely a trilogy of films that will have a total runtime of six-hours!
Yep this is one of the very key issues with JJ bashing. A couple of movies can never quite explore 200 years of Trek lore aswell as 40 years of TV shows can.
__________________
No animals were harmed during posting ...
anh165 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21 2013, 03:56 PM   #234
dub
Fleet Captain
 
dub's Avatar
 
Location: Location? What is this?
Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

My fear is now that they got away with re-using characters and lifting lots of dialogue/situations from previous Trek, and people are spending the money to see it, they'll keep doing that. Apparently a lot of people really love that. I find it extremely corny. No amount of special effects, suspenseful music or action can make Spock shouting "Khannnnn" anything but eye-roll-worthy for me (and all of the other dialogue lifted from TWOK falls into that category for me). A little goes a long way. A quote here or there, fine. Perhaps even cool. But they went totally overboard with it. They milked it dry and continued suckling for good measure. The thing is, I don't mind many aspects of the re-boot. The actors are great. The special effects are incredible. And even though I enjoy joking about it, I liked the lens flares! But the main thing is I just want a great story, and I think STID was almost there. I'd just rather see it without SO many "nods" to previous Trek. But that's just me, and I realize I'm in the minority and everyone loves/hates different things, and yada yada yada, so I'm bracing myself for another over-the-top quote-fest in the third installment.

But to answer the OP - I'm fine with either timeline as long as it's good!
dub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21 2013, 04:00 PM   #235
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I guess you missed "Journey to Babel", "Yesteryear" and the entirety of Star Trek: Enterprise?

Name one full-blooded Vulcan that exemplifies IDIC. Even Sarek shunned his own son for eighteen years. Why? For daring to explore a little of that infinite diversity rather than stay on Vulcan.
Tuvok. He might have been annoyed when the likes of Neelix and the EMH poked him about being so logical, but he accepted and advocated diversity.
Touché.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21 2013, 04:20 PM   #236
dub
Fleet Captain
 
dub's Avatar
 
Location: Location? What is this?
Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I guess you missed "Journey to Babel", "Yesteryear" and the entirety of Star Trek: Enterprise?

Name one full-blooded Vulcan that exemplifies IDIC. Even Sarek shunned his own son for eighteen years. Why? For daring to explore a little of that infinite diversity rather than stay on Vulcan.
Tuvok. He might have been annoyed when the likes of Neelix and the EMH poked him about being so logical, but he accepted and advocated diversity.




Sorry, I couldn't resist!
dub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21 2013, 05:20 PM   #237
Admiral2
Vice Admiral
 
Admiral2's Avatar
 
Location: Peregrine Cliff
Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

anh165 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
His story in TMP is pretty much about the pure Vulcan way not being for him.
People seem pissed that Abrams didn't take eighty-hours to get to that point in what is likely a trilogy of films that will have a total runtime of six-hours!
Yep this is one of the very key issues with JJ bashing. A couple of movies can never quite explore 200 years of Trek lore aswell as 40 years of TV shows can.
I don't bash JJ because he didn't include 40 years of back story.

I bash him cause his stuff is shit.
__________________
"That's another thing Hollywood gets wrong. Real women EAT."

-Tom Clancy
Admiral2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21 2013, 05:25 PM   #238
ComicGuy89
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Admiral2 wrote: View Post
anh165 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

People seem pissed that Abrams didn't take eighty-hours to get to that point in what is likely a trilogy of films that will have a total runtime of six-hours!
Yep this is one of the very key issues with JJ bashing. A couple of movies can never quite explore 200 years of Trek lore aswell as 40 years of TV shows can.
I don't bash JJ because he didn't include 40 years of back story.

I bash him cause his stuff is shit.
Bashing in any form is to be frowned upon. We could discuss the topic at hand to help come to a mutual understanding instead.

Last edited by ComicGuy89; August 21 2013 at 05:45 PM. Reason: Changed weird grammar
ComicGuy89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21 2013, 05:36 PM   #239
Admiral2
Vice Admiral
 
Admiral2's Avatar
 
Location: Peregrine Cliff
Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

ComicGuy89 wrote: View Post
Admiral2 wrote: View Post
anh165 wrote: View Post

Yep this is one of the very key issues with JJ bashing. A couple of movies can never quite explore 200 years of Trek lore aswell as 40 years of TV shows can.
I don't bash JJ because he didn't include 40 years of back story.

I bash him cause his stuff is shit.
Besides, bashing in any form is to be frowned upon. We could discuss the topic at hand to help come to a mutual understanding instead.
Okay. My main problem with new timeline is the guy who created it, because most things he's had a hand in utterly fail to entertain me. (The exception is Super 8, and only because the horror film the kids made was more enjoyable than the bulk of Abrams' repertoire.)
__________________
"That's another thing Hollywood gets wrong. Real women EAT."

-Tom Clancy
Admiral2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21 2013, 05:41 PM   #240
Chemahkuu
Vice Admiral
 
Chemahkuu's Avatar
 
Location: United Kingdom
Send a message via Yahoo to Chemahkuu
Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Admiral2 wrote: View Post
I bash him cause his stuff is shit.
In your opinion. And you have yet to really contribute anything to back up the repeated vulgar torrent of verbal 'runs' you've had over the topic for 4 and a half obsessive years.
__________________
"But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake."
Chemahkuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
prime trek

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:17 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.