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Old August 21 2013, 05:07 PM   #61
Melakon
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

teacake wrote: View Post
Was it the amplest?

:: ponders ::
I didn't get a chance to compare ample samples. I liked the silver catsuit the most, the later darker ones weren't quite as revealing of her shape.

I was never sure though, if that was really Jeri's hair wrapped up on her head (I don't know anything about hairstyle nomenclature), or whether it was some sort of wig.
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Old August 21 2013, 05:09 PM   #62
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

Melakon wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Was it the amplest?

:: ponders ::
I didn't get a chance to compare ample samples. I liked the silver catsuit the most, the later darker ones weren't quite as revealing of her shape.

I was never sure though, if that was really Jeri's hair wrapped up on her head (I don't know anything about hairstyle nomenclature), or whether it was some sort of wig.
The silver suit, because of the reflective property of the fabric, made her look more ample than she really is.

And, yes, that's her real hair. The style is called a French twist.
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Old August 21 2013, 05:11 PM   #63
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

KaraBear wrote: View Post
They weren't cookie cutter starfleet officers like on TNG and DS9. They were people who had some kind of issue in their past, they were flawed, they were more like real people.l
Sorry but I nearly choked on my drink in shock when I read this. The characters on DS9 were certainly not "cookie cutter" and they were definitely flawed and complex. I'd easily say they were much better written characters than on Voyager and indeed, any ST series. For me, the characters are a huge weakness of Voyager. Some were hardly developed at all and by the end Janeway, Seven and The Doctor dominated the show at the expense of the other characters.
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Old August 21 2013, 05:13 PM   #64
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

But to contribute to the thread with something other than disagreements I really enjoy Voyager's opening, the music and visuals are spectacular and somewhat comforting. The lighter tone is a nice change of pace after DS9 which was very dark at times.
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Old August 21 2013, 05:30 PM   #65
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

teya wrote: View Post
. . .And, yes, that's her real hair. The style is called a French twist.
Merci.
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Old August 21 2013, 05:37 PM   #66
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

De rien.
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Old August 21 2013, 05:48 PM   #67
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

BlueStuff wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
They weren't cookie cutter starfleet officers like on TNG and DS9. They were people who had some kind of issue in their past, they were flawed, they were more like real people.l
Sorry but I nearly choked on my drink in shock when I read this. The characters on DS9 were certainly not "cookie cutter" and they were definitely flawed and complex. I'd easily say they were much better written characters than on Voyager and indeed, any ST series. For me, the characters are a huge weakness of Voyager. Some were hardly developed at all and by the end Janeway, Seven and The Doctor dominated the show at the expense of the other characters.
I didn't say they weren't complex, but I definately don't think they were as "flawed" as the voyager characters. I would say that Kira and Odo were, but everyone else was pretty standard.

maybe I should clarify that by "flawed" I mean there was something in their past that was a big issue. If you look at the characters on Voyager, Chakotay left his tribe to go to Stafleet with objections from his father and members of the tribe. Tuvok as a vulcan was going to abandon logic because he fell in love with a girl, Tom had his accident as a cadet, was kicked out of starfleet, joined the maquis, got caught and sent to jail, B'Elanna as a young child dealt wih her father abandonign her, her internal issues as a half klingon, and being kicked out of the academy, even Neelix and Kes had something in their background. Neelix had his whole family killed, and Kes took a chance to go to the surface knowing that the last person never came back, she went knowing that there was a good chance something up there would kill her. the only ones that there's no canon background for is Harry and Janeway, but according to Pathways Harry was rejected from the academy his first attempt, and Janeway had to watch her fiance and father die in a shuttle craft accidet that she was able to escape from.

When you compare them to the characters on DS9, none of them really have anything like that. Except for as I said maybe Kira and Odo, and I'll add Ezri (who I think was not given a fair chance in the show, she was a very complex character)
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Old August 21 2013, 06:13 PM   #68
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

KaraBear wrote: View Post
When you compare them to the characters on DS9, none of them really have anything like that. Except for as I said maybe Kira and Odo, and I'll add Ezri (who I think was not given a fair chance in the show, she was a very complex character)
Huh?

Sisko's wife was killed & he's raising a kid alone.

But, maybe you've got a different standard of what constitutes a traumatic past experience, since the only VOY character you didn't note had a traumatic past was... Seven.

Who actually had the most traumatic past of all of them.
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Old August 21 2013, 06:17 PM   #69
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

KaraBear wrote: View Post
BlueStuff wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
They weren't cookie cutter starfleet officers like on TNG and DS9. They were people who had some kind of issue in their past, they were flawed, they were more like real people.l
Sorry but I nearly choked on my drink in shock when I read this. The characters on DS9 were certainly not "cookie cutter" and they were definitely flawed and complex. I'd easily say they were much better written characters than on Voyager and indeed, any ST series. For me, the characters are a huge weakness of Voyager. Some were hardly developed at all and by the end Janeway, Seven and The Doctor dominated the show at the expense of the other characters.
I didn't say they weren't complex, but I definately don't think they were as "flawed" as the voyager characters. I would say that Kira and Odo were, but everyone else was pretty standard.

maybe I should clarify that by "flawed" I mean there was something in their past that was a big issue. If you look at the characters on Voyager, Chakotay left his tribe to go to Stafleet with objections from his father and members of the tribe. Tuvok as a vulcan was going to abandon logic because he fell in love with a girl, Tom had his accident as a cadet, was kicked out of starfleet, joined the maquis, got caught and sent to jail, B'Elanna as a young child dealt wih her father abandonign her, her internal issues as a half klingon, and being kicked out of the academy, even Neelix and Kes had something in their background. Neelix had his whole family killed, and Kes took a chance to go to the surface knowing that the last person never came back, she went knowing that there was a good chance something up there would kill her. the only ones that there's no canon background for is Harry and Janeway, but according to Pathways Harry was rejected from the academy his first attempt, and Janeway had to watch her fiance and father die in a shuttle craft accidet that she was able to escape from.

When you compare them to the characters on DS9, none of them really have anything like that. Except for as I said maybe Kira and Odo, and I'll add Ezri (who I think was not given a fair chance in the show, she was a very complex character)
Bashir was illegally subjected to genetic engineering causing all manner of conflicts with his sense of self-worth and his perception by others, severely affecting his relationship with his parents.

You've already mentioned Odo and Kira.

Sisko was mothered by a woman who was being used as a vessel by alien gods, and his wife was killed in the battle of Wolf 359 (with an assimilated Picard playing a pivotal role) leaving him to raise his son by himself and consequently causing him to consider resigning from Starfleet, all before the first episode.

Worf is Worf, one of the most developed characters in all of Star Trek. If we're to refer to your criteria for issues in the past, his parents were killed by Cardassians leaving him to be raised by a human couple on a planet alien to his own with almost no experience of interaction with his own kind.

O'Brien fought in a war against the Carsassians and was emotionally scarred by the atrocities he experienced.

Quark was active during the Cardassian occupation of Bajor, selling food and supplies to the Bajorans at great risk to himself. He had an unstable relationship with his mother, who refused to embrace Ferengi tradition and instead sought progression.

Then you have Dukat, the most complex and well-developed antagonist in all of Trek with a past as a brutal, ruthless dictator during the Occupation of Bajor. Then you have Garak, who needs no explanation.

I've conveniently left out Jadzia because I don't find her particularly interesting but even she has a relevant past in her previous life as a mentor to Sisko as Curzon.


So you see, the DS9 characters certainly have issues from their pasts. I guess it's a matter of opinion as to which set of characters have the more interesting past but for me, as a whole it's the DS9 crew without a doubt.
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Old August 21 2013, 06:22 PM   #70
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

teya wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
When you compare them to the characters on DS9, none of them really have anything like that. Except for as I said maybe Kira and Odo, and I'll add Ezri (who I think was not given a fair chance in the show, she was a very complex character)
Huh?

Sisko's wife was killed & he's raising a kid alone.

But, maybe you've got a different standard of what constitutes a traumatic past experience, since the only VOY character you didn't note had a traumatic past was... Seven.

Who actually had the most traumatic past of all of them.
I didn't mean to leave her out, you're right she did have quite a traumatic past
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Old August 21 2013, 06:23 PM   #71
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

BlueStuff wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
BlueStuff wrote: View Post

Sorry but I nearly choked on my drink in shock when I read this. The characters on DS9 were certainly not "cookie cutter" and they were definitely flawed and complex. I'd easily say they were much better written characters than on Voyager and indeed, any ST series. For me, the characters are a huge weakness of Voyager. Some were hardly developed at all and by the end Janeway, Seven and The Doctor dominated the show at the expense of the other characters.
I didn't say they weren't complex, but I definately don't think they were as "flawed" as the voyager characters. I would say that Kira and Odo were, but everyone else was pretty standard.

maybe I should clarify that by "flawed" I mean there was something in their past that was a big issue. If you look at the characters on Voyager, Chakotay left his tribe to go to Stafleet with objections from his father and members of the tribe. Tuvok as a vulcan was going to abandon logic because he fell in love with a girl, Tom had his accident as a cadet, was kicked out of starfleet, joined the maquis, got caught and sent to jail, B'Elanna as a young child dealt wih her father abandonign her, her internal issues as a half klingon, and being kicked out of the academy, even Neelix and Kes had something in their background. Neelix had his whole family killed, and Kes took a chance to go to the surface knowing that the last person never came back, she went knowing that there was a good chance something up there would kill her. the only ones that there's no canon background for is Harry and Janeway, but according to Pathways Harry was rejected from the academy his first attempt, and Janeway had to watch her fiance and father die in a shuttle craft accidet that she was able to escape from.

When you compare them to the characters on DS9, none of them really have anything like that. Except for as I said maybe Kira and Odo, and I'll add Ezri (who I think was not given a fair chance in the show, she was a very complex character)
Bashir was illegally subjected to genetic engineering causing all manner of conflicts with his sense of self-worth and his perception by others, severely affecting his relationship with his parents.

You've already mentioned Odo and Kira.

Sisko was mothered by a woman who was being used as a vessel by alien gods, and his wife was killed in the battle of Wolf 359 (with an assimilated Picard playing a pivotal role) leaving him to raise his son by himself and consequently causing him to consider resigning from Starfleet, all before the first episode.

Worf is Worf, one of the most developed characters in all of Star Trek. If we're to refer to your criteria for issues in the past, his parents were killed by Cardassians leaving him to be raised by a human couple on a planet alien to his own with almost no experience of interaction with his own kind.

O'Brien fought in a war against the Carsassians and was emotionally scarred by the atrocities he experienced.

Quark was active during the Cardassian occupation of Bajor, selling food and supplies to the Bajorans at great risk to himself. He had an unstable relationship with his mother, who refused to embrace Ferengi tradition and instead sought progression.

Then you have Dukat, the most complex and well-developed antagonist in all of Trek with a past as a brutal, ruthless dictator during the Occupation of Bajor. Then you have Garak, who needs no explanation.

I've conveniently left out Jadzia because I don't find her particularly interesting but even she has a relevant past in her previous life as a mentor to Sisko as Curzon.


So you see, the DS9 characters certainly have issues from their pasts. I guess it's a matter of opinion as to which set of characters have the more interesting past but for me, as a whole it's the DS9 crew without a doubt.
Like I said, I don't think the DS9 people are without their flaws or development, I like them a lot. (except for Jadzia, she was to perfect at everything it annoyed me) I just like the Voyager characters more
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Old August 21 2013, 06:52 PM   #72
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

Melakon wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Was it the amplest?

:: ponders ::
I didn't get a chance to compare ample samples. I liked the silver catsuit the most, the later darker ones weren't quite as revealing of her shape.
Tell me about it. It's like comparing amples and oranges.
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Old August 21 2013, 07:49 PM   #73
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

Voyager had some great potential, but I always found it disappointing how it was handled. The first three seasons, it was all about Janeway. I think Jeri Taylor wrote her own Mary Sue here. By seasons 4-7, it evolved into most of the episodes being about how awesome Janeway is, Seven exploring humanity, or the Doctor because he was a fan favorite. But these three characters pretty much got the attention to the detriment of everyone else. Some of the "lower deck" main cast had great potential too.

Chakotay... I thought he was going to be my favorite character when I first saw Caretaker. He was the roguish guy with an attitude, yet a sense of honor under it. Boy that sure didn't last. Instead he promptly becomes Janeway's yes man, and the bit of character development we get about him is his imaginary Indian tribe that makes me want to facepalm. His best moment was in Scorpion when he seemed to find his balls and actually had it out with Janeway.

Tom Paris... well what's there to say about him except he can do ANYTHING. He's an ace pilot, combat medic, commando, can charm women, expert on everything, and can build a ship that goes infinite. I like Paris a lot, but really he's the only one of the lower deck main cast that's competent and I really wish some of that was projected elsewhere. Kim could've been the history expert, Torres could know more about ancient vehicles, etc. My favorite episode with him was 30 days. That one really got into his character a lot.

Torres... Klingon parody. She get's angry, smashes things, or fixes them. Even the full blooded Klingons don't have her rage issues, so I'm not buying it's her Klingon half. I still can't figure out -why- Janeway chose her to head up engineering with all her personal issues. Especially when she nearly blew up the ship a few episodes into the run by going against Janeway's orders. My favorite Torres episode was Extreme Risk. It really got into her head quite nicely and it was good to see her displaying an emotion other than violent rage.

Harry Kim... poor guy. He essentially became Voyager's whipping boy. We can't have a goldshirt die every episode to show how serious the situation is, so we'll have something bad happen to Harry instead. It got even worse when he screws up his attempts to get a girl in the most facepalming of ways. Nothing wrong with having the eager mama's boy, but they could've toned it down a bit. Without a doubt his best episode was Timeless. Really they should've hired Burton on as a consultant to work with Wang full time. He really brought out the best in him.

Neelix... ugh. Sorry to say, this is a character I actively loathe. He's just a jerk of the first order. He forces himself into every situation, then acts like he has supreme authority just because he won't take no for an answer. Be it constantly harassing Tuvok because the Vulcan doesn't share his values, to stalking Kes in a fit of jealousy, to barging in everywhere uninvited, to asking the pregnant woman to fix his kitchen. He's a selfish jerk. It's all about him first. The closest I came to being sympathetic to Neelix was in Fair Trade. I could see an honest person slowly getting deeper and deeper into a situation to help an old friend like that. Even then he's traits as a liar and a thief came out. Well it's nothing new, from episode 1 he did that. How Janeway ever trusted him after that fiasco getting them captured by the Kazon when they didn't even have the information he said they would is beyond me. But he does adore Janeway, so maybe she keeps him around for that.

Kes... she could've been so much more. She never really got developed at all... be it as a love interest or with her mental abilities. It was always she was just around until there was a plot need. Mainly something medical outside sickbay until the doctor got his emitter. This one's hard, but I'll say Warlord is my favorite Kes episode. Silly story in some ways, but you can tell Lien was really putting her all into that performance and it showed that Kes had an inner strength that isn't apparent.
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Old August 21 2013, 08:01 PM   #74
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

R. Star wrote: View Post
Voyager had some great potential, but I always found it disappointing how it was handled. The first three seasons, it was all about Janeway. I think Jeri Taylor wrote her own Mary Sue here. By seasons 4-7, it evolved into most of the episodes being about how awesome Janeway is, Seven exploring humanity, or the Doctor because he was a fan favorite. But these three characters pretty much got the attention to the detriment of everyone else. Some of the "lower deck" main cast had great potential too.

Chakotay... I thought he was going to be my favorite character when I first saw Caretaker. He was the roguish guy with an attitude, yet a sense of honor under it. Boy that sure didn't last. Instead he promptly becomes Janeway's yes man, and the bit of character development we get about him is his imaginary Indian tribe that makes me want to facepalm. His best moment was in Scorpion when he seemed to find his balls and actually had it out with Janeway.

Tom Paris... well what's there to say about him except he can do ANYTHING. He's an ace pilot, combat medic, commando, can charm women, expert on everything, and can build a ship that goes infinite. I like Paris a lot, but really he's the only one of the lower deck main cast that's competent and I really wish some of that was projected elsewhere. Kim could've been the history expert, Torres could know more about ancient vehicles, etc. My favorite episode with him was 30 days. That one really got into his character a lot.

Torres... Klingon parody. She get's angry, smashes things, or fixes them. Even the full blooded Klingons don't have her rage issues, so I'm not buying it's her Klingon half. I still can't figure out -why- Janeway chose her to head up engineering with all her personal issues. Especially when she nearly blew up the ship a few episodes into the run by going against Janeway's orders. My favorite Torres episode was Extreme Risk. It really got into her head quite nicely and it was good to see her displaying an emotion other than violent rage.

Harry Kim... poor guy. He essentially became Voyager's whipping boy. We can't have a goldshirt die every episode to show how serious the situation is, so we'll have something bad happen to Harry instead. It got even worse when he screws up his attempts to get a girl in the most facepalming of ways. Nothing wrong with having the eager mama's boy, but they could've toned it down a bit. Without a doubt his best episode was Timeless. Really they should've hired Burton on as a consultant to work with Wang full time. He really brought out the best in him.

Neelix... ugh. Sorry to say, this is a character I actively loathe. He's just a jerk of the first order. He forces himself into every situation, then acts like he has supreme authority just because he won't take no for an answer. Be it constantly harassing Tuvok because the Vulcan doesn't share his values, to stalking Kes in a fit of jealousy, to barging in everywhere uninvited, to asking the pregnant woman to fix his kitchen. He's a selfish jerk. It's all about him first. The closest I came to being sympathetic to Neelix was in Fair Trade. I could see an honest person slowly getting deeper and deeper into a situation to help an old friend like that. Even then he's traits as a liar and a thief came out. Well it's nothing new, from episode 1 he did that. How Janeway ever trusted him after that fiasco getting them captured by the Kazon when they didn't even have the information he said they would is beyond me. But he does adore Janeway, so maybe she keeps him around for that.

Kes... she could've been so much more. She never really got developed at all... be it as a love interest or with her mental abilities. It was always she was just around until there was a plot need. Mainly something medical outside sickbay until the doctor got his emitter. This one's hard, but I'll say Warlord is my favorite Kes episode. Silly story in some ways, but you can tell Lien was really putting her all into that performance and it showed that Kes had an inner strength that isn't apparent.
this was supposed to be things you LIKED about the show, there are a thousand other threads you can talk about what you didn't like in
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Old August 21 2013, 08:04 PM   #75
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Re: Things you liked about voyager

Did you even read the post? Bit too eager to play thought police there, I think.
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