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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old August 10 2013, 09:20 AM   #16
F. King Daniel
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Re: Untangling the various Trek Universes

GameOn wrote: View Post
It's reasonable to think that the events of First Contact created an alternate timeline that Enterprise and Star Trek 2009 take place in. Interference from the future could explain the more advanced looking technology in the series and the movies. I also refuse to believe the events of the episode "Regeneration" took place in the same timeline as later events in TNG.
IMO the way the technology or sets looks means no more than the way the actors look. If a character can be recast, than the sets and props can, too and be no more different than Saavik was in STIII.

I also don't hold any episode or movie as absolute "fact" - Trek holds together in broad strokes only. Take a look at the YouTube videos in my sig to see just how broken the continuity is when you take everything literally. At the very start of the novelization of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Gene Roddenberry has Kirk dismiss The Original Series as an inacurrate dramatization of Kirk's five-year mission. Kirk flat out calls it "foolish heroics" and "exaggeration" and says he'll not allow such in the future. I bet GR would love the new movies

I hear the First Contact AU excuse a lot, but it doesn't hold up under scrutiny - FC is referenced several times in Voyager (and in fact, "Regeneration" neatly explains how Seven knew of the past events of FC!), which launches from Deep Space Nine and crosses over with TNG and STVI and mentions FC. DS9 crosses over with TNG and TOS, TOS crosses over with TNG and nuTrek, etc etc. - it's a big tangled web, you cut one or two bits off and it just makes more of a mess because the bits that used to add up, don't anymore.
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Old August 10 2013, 03:10 PM   #17
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Re: Untangling the various Trek Universes

Star Trek has always had a wobbly continuity, way before Enterprise; That is just part of the show. Enterprise takes place in both the original, and the Abrams universe, because it is set before the time-line split that was caused by Nero.
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Old August 10 2013, 03:41 PM   #18
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Re: Untangling the various Trek Universes

I blame 'First Contact' for all the ENT FUBAR's. Picard and crew's interaction is enough to change the immediate future in the 22nd C, including the name of the first Warp 5 ship commanded by Archer.
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Old August 10 2013, 05:01 PM   #19
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Re: Untangling the various Trek Universes

CaptainBearclaw wrote:
Frankly, since Into Darkness has the only reference to Enterprise having ever taken place
What about STXI's reference to "Admiral Archer"?
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Old August 14 2013, 01:32 PM   #20
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Re: Untangling the various Trek Universes

Anymore, I've started considering the following as occuring in separate universes:

1. ST/TAS/TMP
2. TWOK/TSFS/TVH/TFF/TUC
3. TNG(and its movies)/DS9/VOY
4. ENT/ST09/STID

Perhaps created by different time travel muddling on the part of our heros, for example, the events of TVH created the "TNG" universe and FC created the "ENT/JJ" universe. I split TWOK-TUC from the rest of TOS because the look and feel seems quite a bit different to me that what came before, it also fixes the sloppy continuity errors and references that occur between the two. I stuck ENT into the JJverse since one would think, even though I know it is impossible, that some reference to it should have occurred in TNG if it were truly part of that universe. Also, the look of Kelvin's bridge reminds me of the NX-01 and the NX-01 was large enough that the larger JJverse ships are a more natural design evolution.
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Old August 14 2013, 01:41 PM   #21
Set Harth
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Re: Untangling the various Trek Universes

"Look and feel" changes aren't really enough to hang a separate universe on. That kind of thing is inevitable in a long-running series.
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Old August 14 2013, 10:41 PM   #22
Hober Mallow
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Re: Untangling the various Trek Universes

drt wrote: View Post
Anymore, I've started considering the following as occuring in separate universes:

1. ST/TAS/TMP
2. TWOK/TSFS/TVH/TFF/TUC
3. TNG(and its movies)/DS9/VOY
4. ENT/ST09/STID
Mostly I agree with this assessment. Nick Meyer's Trek is his own Trek reboot, completely different from Roddenberry's Trek, but still a valid interpretation. I'll never understand the need for some fans to reconcile all the variants of Trek into one cohesive whole (though clearly I'm in the minority). Each interpretation of Trek is best enjoyed on its own merits. Meyer's military Starfleet stands in stark contrast to Roddenberry's non-military Starfleet (and Roddenberry's own ideas about the show changed over the years).
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Old August 15 2013, 12:31 PM   #23
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Re: Untangling the various Trek Universes

Personally, I think they're all alternate universes after "The Cage." That's the One True Canon!
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Old August 15 2013, 01:52 PM   #24
F. King Daniel
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Re: Untangling the various Trek Universes

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
drt wrote: View Post
Anymore, I've started considering the following as occuring in separate universes:

1. ST/TAS/TMP
2. TWOK/TSFS/TVH/TFF/TUC
3. TNG(and its movies)/DS9/VOY
4. ENT/ST09/STID
Mostly I agree with this assessment. Nick Meyer's Trek is his own Trek reboot, completely different from Roddenberry's Trek, but still a valid interpretation. I'll never understand the need for some fans to reconcile all the variants of Trek into one cohesive whole (though clearly I'm in the minority). Each interpretation of Trek is best enjoyed on its own merits. Meyer's military Starfleet stands in stark contrast to Roddenberry's non-military Starfleet (and Roddenberry's own ideas about the show changed over the years).
Yet how do you explain all the crossovers if the reboots are "comletely separate"? I agree 100% that the goalposts keep being moved (something I actually enjoy, it thows everything prior into a new light and makes rewatching old episodes and movies more fun), but in-universe, as nonsensical as it can be sometimes, it's all meant to be one big history.
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Old August 15 2013, 06:34 PM   #25
Hober Mallow
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Re: Untangling the various Trek Universes

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
drt wrote: View Post
Anymore, I've started considering the following as occuring in separate universes:

1. ST/TAS/TMP
2. TWOK/TSFS/TVH/TFF/TUC
3. TNG(and its movies)/DS9/VOY
4. ENT/ST09/STID
Mostly I agree with this assessment. Nick Meyer's Trek is his own Trek reboot, completely different from Roddenberry's Trek, but still a valid interpretation. I'll never understand the need for some fans to reconcile all the variants of Trek into one cohesive whole (though clearly I'm in the minority). Each interpretation of Trek is best enjoyed on its own merits. Meyer's military Starfleet stands in stark contrast to Roddenberry's non-military Starfleet (and Roddenberry's own ideas about the show changed over the years).
Yet how do you explain all the crossovers if the reboots are "comletely separate"? I agree 100% that the goalposts keep being moved (something I actually enjoy, it thows everything prior into a new light and makes rewatching old episodes and movies more fun), but in-universe, as nonsensical as it can be sometimes, it's all meant to be one big history.
If I wrote "Hamlet, Part II," I would be beholden to the events of the original play Shakespeare wrote, but no one would consider my play to be any real part of Shakespeare's canon. Following the events of the original has to do with the internal consistency of my play, and almost nothing to do with the original. No one, reading the original play, is going to give my play a second thought, nor should they. And someone else would be free to write their own sequel to "Hamlet" and not be tied to referring back to my play.

The Berman-era TV sequels, created by and large by other people, are derivative works of the original Star Trek, and are certainly a valid interpretation, but other iterations of Trek should feel free to contradict the Berman-era shows.
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Old August 15 2013, 06:37 PM   #26
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Re: Untangling the various Trek Universes

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
The Berman-era TV sequels, created by and large by other people, are derivative works of the original Star Trek, and are certainly a valid interpretation, but other iterations of Trek should feel free to contradict the Berman-era shows.
This.
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Old August 21 2013, 07:43 AM   #27
Austin 3:16
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Re: Untangling the various Trek Universes

drt wrote: View Post
Anymore, I've started considering the following as occuring in separate universes:

1. ST/TAS/TMP
2. TWOK/TSFS/TVH/TFF/TUC
3. TNG(and its movies)/DS9/VOY
4. ENT/ST09/STID

Perhaps created by different time travel muddling on the part of our heros, for example, the events of TVH created the "TNG" universe and FC created the "ENT/JJ" universe. I split TWOK-TUC from the rest of TOS because the look and feel seems quite a bit different to me that what came before, it also fixes the sloppy continuity errors and references that occur between the two. I stuck ENT into the JJverse since one would think, even though I know it is impossible, that some reference to it should have occurred in TNG if it were truly part of that universe. Also, the look of Kelvin's bridge reminds me of the NX-01 and the NX-01 was large enough that the larger JJverse ships are a more natural design evolution.
But ENT was referenced in TNG in the ENT episode "These Are The Voyages..." Sure, the episode may have sucked, but that episode was pretty much another TNG episode. Therefore, ENT and TNG took place in the same timeline.
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Old August 21 2013, 01:55 PM   #28
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Re: Untangling the various Trek Universes

Austin 3:16 wrote: View Post
drt wrote: View Post
Anymore, I've started considering the following as occuring in separate universes:

1. ST/TAS/TMP
2. TWOK/TSFS/TVH/TFF/TUC
3. TNG(and its movies)/DS9/VOY
4. ENT/ST09/STID

Perhaps created by different time travel muddling on the part of our heros, for example, the events of TVH created the "TNG" universe and FC created the "ENT/JJ" universe. I split TWOK-TUC from the rest of TOS because the look and feel seems quite a bit different to me that what came before, it also fixes the sloppy continuity errors and references that occur between the two. I stuck ENT into the JJverse since one would think, even though I know it is impossible, that some reference to it should have occurred in TNG if it were truly part of that universe. Also, the look of Kelvin's bridge reminds me of the NX-01 and the NX-01 was large enough that the larger JJverse ships are a more natural design evolution.
But ENT was referenced in TNG in the ENT episode "These Are The Voyages..." Sure, the episode may have sucked, but that episode was pretty much another TNG episode. Therefore, ENT and TNG took place in the same timeline.
A better example would have been TNG's Gambit, which does reference the Vulcan Civil War depicted in the The Forge/Awakening/Kir'shara arc of season 4.
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