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Old August 20 2013, 12:59 PM   #31
Robert Comsol
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

@ Praetor

Concerning the engineering hull chasm I'm obviously still a kid.

@ Workbee

I think that single shot you linked should be "triangulated" with the pass-through shot and the inside-arrival shot. The latter one is interesting once you notice the obvious space between the starboard nacelle and the spacedoor frame.

I wonder what or how many size proposals we might get for the spacedoors and whether the "size comparison chart" sized Excelsior would fit through.

@ King Daniel

Why do the surface details and interiors of the Grissom suggest a vessel larger than 120 meters?
I still haven't made up my mind what those dome lights top and bottom could possibly be, other than reaction control thrusters of some kind.
Assuming these were windows I'm afraid that would make the vessel's engineering pod look like the spacedock's smaller brother.
And the only interior of Grissom we saw was the bridge - which looks to me as if they had moved the helm console closer to the wall consoles to suggest a much smaller bridge than Enterprise.

Bob
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Old August 20 2013, 02:04 PM   #32
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

I guess my preconceptions about the "windows" on the model as well as the Tsiolkovsky interiors , which IIRC were redressed TNG corridors and crew quarters, seen in TNG: "The Naked Now"
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Old August 20 2013, 02:10 PM   #33
Robert Comsol
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Okay, I see. I was approaching the Grissom from a strictly Kirk era point of view, you consider the (obvious) larger size suggested by many TNG episodes. Thanks.

Bob
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Old August 20 2013, 05:48 PM   #34
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Timo wrote: View Post
Does anyone have any opinions on the Damn Secondary Hull Chasm?
I'd just like to point out that we don't exactly know whether it was there during the transwarp experiments yet. Since there are no stern views showing the hollow until ST6:TUC, we might speculate that the secondary hull was built "larger than it really need be" in order to accommodate machinery that was removed after the first few movies - either simply because the testing phase was over, or because the machinery had been revealed a failure.

Series production of ships with this now-useless cavity might still commence; plenty of real-world examples of such exist, such as armored vehicles designed to take useless and indeed highly detrimental lead ballast merely because an early model was supposed to accommodate a wireless or an autoloader in the space!

The photographic model features an interesting greeblie in there, but this is virtually never seen. NCC-2000 features a blue "forcefield" glow, but this is unique to that individual vessel. And then there are the differences introduced in the "Flashback" model and the CGI models. Plenty enough excuse to think that the class was constantly being tinkered with, and that engineers well saw the utility of a "useless" expansion space.
Well, I am trying to keep an open mind about it all - and I have to say it makes more sense as an unused space than a shuttlebay at closer reexamination. And it is indeed rather convenient that we don't see it in TSFS - perhaps it was open but filled with some mystical transwarp tech?

I had previously rationalized that, as a shuttlebay, the reason the bay itself was suspended was two fold. Primarily, the ship's mass was on the verge of being too high, but warp geometry pushed for a curved lower hull - ergo it was left empty. This had the side benefit of enabling a staging area to be used within the ship but outside the bay for departing or arriving ships.

However, closer re-examination of the pod within might suggest that it's not substantial enough to be a shuttlebay "gondola" - at best it's some kind of shuttlebay control room, and in that instance, there's no landing floor, just curved structure.

I'm afraid it's going to not end up being a shuttlebay.

Later tonight, I need to do some maths on the Excelsior to try to figure out what size she might be with my deck arrangement. I think 3.75 meters is fairly standard, ya? Sad thing is, I knew this shit once.
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Old August 20 2013, 06:56 PM   #35
Boris Skrbic
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

It's not standard by any means. Rick Sternbach uses 12-13 feet, but Andrew Probert uses 10. Who knows what the Excelsior modelmakers may have used.

I suggest tabling this thread until Maurice has talked to BG.
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Old August 20 2013, 08:55 PM   #36
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

I'd be inclined to lean towards 12. Or 10 in the saucer, 12 in the secondary hull.

But yeah, as you say, to a degree I'm inclined to let this one coast to see if Maurice gets to talk to Mr. George. Meanwhile I can re-read all the crap I wrote about her before and see if any of it still makes sense.
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Old August 20 2013, 11:09 PM   #37
sojourner
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

I always pitcured the secondary hull cavity as a "modular mission bay". An area that could take plug in modules depending on need.
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Old August 21 2013, 12:42 AM   #38
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

What is interesting is that even the Study Model by Bill George seems to have this chasm.
http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/...ill_George.jpg

The Blue Forcefield glow actually predated TUC (when alterations were made). Its appearance in TNG, particularly in Unnatural Selection reveals this blue glow:

http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/..._of_Galaxy.jpg


So it seems there is a definite story here. I am very curious what Bill George envisioned with this opening.

Here is an early publicity shot shortly after completion of the model for TSFS:
http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/...icity_shot.jpg


ETA: Looks like misremembered the episode of TNG. That Excelsior shot from TNG was actually from the episode The Child, not Unnatural Selection. However it seems to have been filmed by ILM as part of the initial library of footage made for Encounter at Farpoint, dating this sometime around 1987.

Last edited by Workbee; August 21 2013 at 08:15 PM.
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Old August 21 2013, 12:48 AM   #39
Praetor
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

sojourner wrote: View Post
I always pictured the secondary hull cavity as a "modular mission bay". An area that could take plug in modules depending on need.
I'm leaning toward that direction increasingly. It may've not started out that way, but having it end up that way makes sense.

Workbee wrote: View Post
What is interesting is that even the Study Model by Bill George seems to have this chasm.
http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/...ill_George.jpg

The Blue Forcefield glow actually predated TUC (when alterations were made). Its appearance in TNG, particularly in Unnatural Selection reveals this blue glow:

http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/..._of_Galaxy.jpg

So it seems there is a definite story here. I am very curious what Bill George envisioned with this opening.

Here is an early publicity shot shortly after completion of the model for TSFS:
http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/...icity_shot.jpg
Thanks, Workbee. I had forgotten entirely about the study model. Hopefully we can somehow find out from Mr. George about his intent.

Not for nothin', but the saucer rim of the study model seems to have three decks.

While we're talking about the secondary hull space, these images bear examination:



The first two are of the original filming model, I think during it's NX days, the third from its Lakota era (obviously) and the fourth from Jein's VGR version.

So, I remembered wrong. There actually is something of a pod in there beyond the structure on the "ceiling"... just not exactly clearcut doors. You can even see it in the Jein model. The AMT model kit, I don't think is entirely accurate to the filming model, but it definitely has a similar pod. (I have an unassembled one I am tempted to take a photo of.)

I also think it's interesting the Lakota's opening was squared off at the bottom, possibly implying a floor?

Thoughts?

By the way, I finally found the diagram of the interior of the refit Enterprise from which I derived the notion of different deck heights. I believe it is also Mr. Probert's work.



I took a chunk of the secondary hull, at put it to the levels shown in the neck. They don't appear to me to be spaced quite the same.



What do you think?
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Last edited by Praetor; August 21 2013 at 01:14 AM.
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Old August 21 2013, 08:41 AM   #40
Maurice
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Bill's approach is very different to Andy's. Bill's more a "does it look cool" guy than Andy, who's meticulous about functional detail.

I run into Bill now and then, but he's frequently traveling so I'm not sure when I'll catch him. I saw him about 10 days ago, so I could run into him tomorrow or 2 months from now.
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Old August 21 2013, 10:54 AM   #41
Patrickivan
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

That aft void on the Excelsior model seemed like a cargo/ storage access point. I'd even suggest that there could be a roll down door that we haven't seen because it wasn't required. But the only point to that may be that because it would be only really accessible by the decks above, I'd guess that the storage would be for volatile equipment that is meant to be deployed at some point. Or perhaps aft sensor/ communication platforms that just weren't meant to be accessed except for odd maintenance.
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Old August 21 2013, 11:04 AM   #42
Robert Comsol
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Workbee wrote: View Post
Here is an early publicity shot shortly after completion of the model for TSFS:
http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/...icity_shot.jpg
Thanks, I was looking for this one but unfortunately I misplaced my ST III trading cards.

What I'm trying to say is I was looking for stern shots of the VFX model from the ST III (to determine whether that part had undergone alterations or not).
Looks like this is the only one we have, but am I imagining things or does the structure inside look like the propeller blade of a submarine?

Then that's it, some kind of futuristic "caterpillar drive" as this definitely carries allusions concerning propulsion (and I don't have to feel bad still thinking like a kid ).

Bob
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Old August 21 2013, 02:02 PM   #43
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

No, I think it looks incredibly like a propellor blade in that picture, though it could also just be a weird trick of the light in comparison to Praetor's pics above.
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Old August 21 2013, 02:58 PM   #44
Praetor
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Maurice wrote: View Post
Bill's approach is very different to Andy's. Bill's more a "does it look cool" guy than Andy, who's meticulous about functional detail.

I run into Bill now and then, but he's frequently traveling so I'm not sure when I'll catch him. I saw him about 10 days ago, so I could run into him tomorrow or 2 months from now.
Eh, ain't nothing wrong with stuff looking cool. Mission accomplished on the Excelsior. I'll just be happy with anything at all he can provide, and quite grateful to you likewise. So perhaps we'll continue speculating, given the irregularity of the visits. I'm still pretty jealous that you know him.

Patrickivan wrote: View Post
That aft void on the Excelsior model seemed like a cargo/ storage access point. I'd even suggest that there could be a roll down door that we haven't seen because it wasn't required. But the only point to that may be that because it would be only really accessible by the decks above, I'd guess that the storage would be for volatile equipment that is meant to be deployed at some point. Or perhaps aft sensor/ communication platforms that just weren't meant to be accessed except for odd maintenance.
A large cargo bay might also work. When I chose to interpret it as a shuttlebay, I had it interconnect up into the cargo bays, which are just under the flat dorsal of the secondary hull. (I also theorized that flat dorsal consisted of hidden doors just forward of the nacelle pylon assembly.) I too theorized there was a hidden "garage" door that was generally never closed.

I'm drifing more and more in the direction of the void originally being some sort of engineering support bay, not unlike what NX-01 had at her saucer's rear, designed for EVA ops related to the transwarp drive as well as containing parts spares and stuff. Maybe after transwarp was removed, it mutated into a more generic cargo bay and auxiliary vehicle holding bay. The blue glow would then of course indicate a forcefield in use, and perhaps something going on inside.

If I was really crazy, I'd try to make that pod in there into a fully independent starship.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
What I'm trying to say is I was looking for stern shots of the VFX model from the ST III (to determine whether that part had undergone alterations or not).

Looks like this is the only one we have, but am I imagining things or does the structure inside look like the propeller blade of a submarine?

Then that's it, some kind of futuristic "caterpillar drive" as this definitely carries allusions concerning propulsion (and I don't have to feel bad still thinking like a kid ).
You're never going to let me live the "kid" thing down are you?

I can see what you mean too... but I'm pretty sure it's a rounded square gondola-style pod hanging from the ceiling, with some superstructure aft of that angling towards the opening itself.

A caterpillar drive is an interesting notion... I just wonder how it would square with instances of the model appearing later and having a glow down there
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Old August 21 2013, 03:12 PM   #45
Mario de Monti
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Great thread, I thoroughly enjoy it

Praetor wrote: View Post
Looking at this picture, does anyone else have to think of the docking bay of an Imperial Star Destroyer?

But it got me thinking: To me this thing inside the bay looks like a "reception point" of some sort. With that trapezoidal opening in the center, flanked/supported be the two sturdy-looking side elements, it seems possible that a special and yet unseen (supply) ship could dock there and/or if it could be used to establish a connection to a space station/dock for resupply purposes.

Just my two cents.

Mario
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