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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old August 20 2013, 10:53 PM   #211
Kinokima
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Please note I am NOT an expert on this. I don't know how these photos were restored. But for example Criterion restores a lot of old films (including ones in the public domain)

Anyone can release these films (and that is why you see multiple bad copies of film in the public domain) but Criterion owns the restored version of the film and only they can release that version.

If the book is using the restored photos then I would have to side with Startrek history here. The original photos might be in the public domain but not the restored versions.

Though I admit this isn't what is stopping me from buying the book, its the price tag and no e-book version.
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Old August 20 2013, 10:58 PM   #212
stcanada29
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
I thought you liked and respected and were a fan of the work these filmclip restorers have been doing.

Thank you, Collector, wherever you are, for now wrecking that!
The appearance of similar B&W public domain images in a book does not detract from the enjoyment fans derive from viewing large, full color versions on the web, IMO. And nothing prevents startrekhistory from monetizing the color versions if they wish to. If you go on ebay now, you can see some of these same rare images actually for sale there as 8" x 10" color prints from many different sellers. Folks have been actually selling them on ebay for years.
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Old August 20 2013, 11:14 PM   #213
GSchnitzer
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

stcanada29 wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
I thought you liked and respected and were a fan of the work these filmclip restorers have been doing.

Thank you, Collector, wherever you are, for now wrecking that!
The appearance of similar B&W public domain images in a book does not detract from the appeal fans derive from viewing large, full color versions on the web, IMO. And nothing prevents startrekhistory from monetizing the color versions if they wish to. If you go on ebay now, you can see some of these same rare images actually for sale there.
Yes, now the restorers can monetize their pictures if they want to. Until the Collector came along, they used to restore and make new and interesting clips available to fans for free. Now the Collector will simply take any new "public domain" images the restorers make available and repackage them somehow to make money for himself. Fans used to be able to get newly restored pictures for free. Now, if it still happens at all, we'll have to buy them. That's the only way they can make it rewarding and worth their while now. It probably was fun for them, but now the Collector makes them look like chumps and doormats if they continue their efforts.

Thank you, Collector, wherever you are, for single-handedly making my Star Trek fandom more expensive!
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Old August 20 2013, 11:33 PM   #214
stcanada29
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Fans used to be able to get newly restored pictures for free. Now, if it still happens at all, we'll have to buy them. That's the only way they can make it rewarding and worth their while now. It probably was fun for them, but now the Collector makes them look like chumps and doormats if they continue their efforts.

Thank you, Collector, wherever you are, for single-handedly making my Star Trek fandom more expensive!
Just pointing out that the option to monetize the pics was always available to startrekhistory, dude, whether they chose to do so or not.

Your suggestion that the appearance of some small BW pics that they do not own and may not have been the source of in a new book has somehow changed the equation to make their work totally unrewarding is laughable.

And, IMO, you are totally wrong in suggesting the book is all about monetizing those tiny pics. As others have said, those pics in no way compete with the high-res color versions freely available on the web. No-one would buy the book to see those 2" wide B&W pics.

IMO, you've totally lost all proper perspective for the situation. I do think the photos slightly enhance the written content, as they seem to have been chosen to correspond with many of the anecdotes in the text - but they aren't the be all and the end all of this book as you would have everyone believe.
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Old August 20 2013, 11:36 PM   #215
BillJ
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

stcanada29 wrote: View Post
IMO, you've totally lost all proper perspective for the situation.
I don't think anyone here has lost perspective. We just think it's wrong that you are profiting from someone else work and didn't even ask if they minded.

If you can't understand our misgivings, then I don't know what else any of us can say. Except, that your cavalier attitude about the situation seems to have turned away many people who were willing to purchase the book.
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Old August 20 2013, 11:51 PM   #216
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

stcanada29 wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Fans used to be able to get newly restored pictures for free. Now, if it still happens at all, we'll have to buy them. That's the only way they can make it rewarding and worth their while now. It probably was fun for them, but now the Collector makes them look like chumps and doormats if they continue their efforts.

Thank you, Collector, wherever you are, for single-handedly making my Star Trek fandom more expensive!
Just pointing out that the option to monetize the pics was always available to startrekhistory, dude, whether they chose to do so or not.

Your suggestion that the appearance of some small BW pics that they do not own and may not have been the source of in a new book has somehow changed the equation to make their work totally unrewarding is laughable.

And, IMO, you are totally wrong in suggesting the book is all about monetizing those tiny pics. As others have said, those pics in no way compete with the high-res color versions freely available on the web. No-one would buy the book to see those 2" wide B&W pics.

IMO, you've totally lost all proper perspective for the situation. I do think the photos slightly enhance the written content, as they seem to have been chosen to correspond with many of the anecdotes in the text - but they aren't the be all and the end all of this book as you would have everyone believe.
I'm not suggesting that it's all about monetizing the images; I'm suggesting that it's any about monetizing the images. And it's not just about monitizing the images when the public buys the books; it's also about the Collector himself monitizing the images by collecting all those images and then selling them to the publisher for use in the book in the first place.

Hey, startrekhistory folks--and "birdofthegalaxy" if you're around: now that we see that your restoration work can be (or was) harvested off the Internet and reused by someone in some self-serving commercial venture, have your restoration efforts become less rewarding for you? Enough so that you are contemplating not doing it any longer? Is that such a laughable notion for you?
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Last edited by GSchnitzer; August 21 2013 at 12:02 AM.
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Old August 21 2013, 12:03 AM   #217
stcanada29
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Well, it's not just about monitizing the images when the public buys the books; it's also about the Collector himself monitizing the images by collecting all those images and then selling them to the publisher for use in the book in the first place.
The photos are all credited "Courtesy of ..." which suggests they were provided free of charge; and the publisher has also stated, I think, online that the pics were freely provided to them.
Why do you continue to try to demonize people and always assume the worst intentions of everyone involved in the project? What a horrible way to live one's life.
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Old August 21 2013, 12:06 AM   #218
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

stcanada29 wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Well, it's not just about monitizing the images when the public buys the books; it's also about the Collector himself monitizing the images by collecting all those images and then selling them to the publisher for use in the book in the first place.
The photos are all credited "Courtesy of ..." which suggests they were provided free of charge; and the publisher has also stated, I think, online that the pics were freely provided to them.
Why do you continue to try to demonize people and always assume the worst intentions of everyone involved in the project? What a horrible way to live one's life.
Oh, I give the publisher and the Collector the benefit of the doubt and trust them at the demonstrably fine word. But we can never really know for sure.

It's also possible that, although the images were provided free of charge, the Collector is getting a cut of the book sales. So that's monetizing the images while sill having provided them as a "courtesy."
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Old August 21 2013, 12:25 AM   #219
stcanada29
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Oh, I give the publisher and the Collector the benefit of the doubt and trust them at the demonstrably fine word. But we can never really know for sure.
The Collector has freely published most of these images on his site ... I'm a frequent visitor ... where they've been on display for several years in many cases for anyone to access. Including hundreds of scans of Lincoln film clips that are clearly unrestored - still showing multiple frames and the slots at the sides of the clips - with their current reddish/magenta tint. But those images are a tiny portion of all the prop and costume photos on the site; all free for fans to share - which have never been watermarked or claimed as proprietary.

That's very gracious of you to trust their good word.

Last edited by stcanada29; August 21 2013 at 12:35 AM.
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Old August 21 2013, 12:35 AM   #220
1001001
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

We're just going in circles here.

Ultimately, the market will speak.
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Old August 21 2013, 12:38 AM   #221
Dr. Sevrin
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

This issue has the potential to become a long form birth certificate scandal in fandom. If the published images in question are individually credited as "Courtesy of startrekhistory.com", then that suggests the author or publisher has some type of document signed by Star Trek History allowing use for publication. Going to a website and downloading images which you then publish are not typically considered as "courtesy of".
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Old August 21 2013, 01:13 AM   #222
Green Shirt
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I wonder what the reaction would be if some "Enterprising" individual post the entire contents of the book on the internet for all to freely read. What a "courtesy" that would be.


Note: In no way am I advocating such a thing, just an interesting "what if" to debate.
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Old August 21 2013, 02:16 AM   #223
GSchnitzer
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

stcanada29 wrote: View Post
The Collector has freely published most of these images on his site ... I'm a frequent visitor ... where they've been on display for several years in many cases for anyone to access. Including hundreds of scans of Lincoln film clips that are clearly unrestored - still showing multiple frames and the slots at the sides of the clips - with their current reddish/magenta tint. But those images are a tiny portion of all the prop and costume photos on the site; all free for fans to share - which have never been watermarked or claimed as proprietary.
Well, some of my pictures of my "commercially available" TOS props were grabbed by the Collector for use on his blog four years ago without permission and without attribution--until such time as I brought it to his attention a couple of months ago. In fact, judging by the variable quality of all the images on his blog, my hunch is that any photo taken by anyone, anywhere, that can be found on the Internet is automatically fair game for the Collector to gather up and repost on his blog without any acknowledgement or attribution. The images as restored by startrekhistory are probably simply being handled with no more respect as anyone else's images.
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Old August 21 2013, 02:24 AM   #224
trevanian
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

1001001 wrote: View Post
We're just going in circles here.

Ultimately, the market will speak.
If the subject hadn't been brought up, the market would be speaking a greener language, at least with respect to this forum's members. Small potatoes, but so it goes.

Plus 'the market' is a lousy criteria; 'the market' made a goddess of Jackie Collins, with Michael Bay its current prince.

If the books are as useful in terms of print info as expected, they are probably going to inform and fuel a lot of threads here; that should prove to be a good thing. So the information (which I presume is not just good but unassailably good) value will be a benefit to us all, whether we read the volumes or not.

Then again, if the creators ask me to not read posts about their creative output, I suppose I will have to respect that, since they should have some modest veto control over how the creations that came from their hours of hard work are used by others who might not have asked their approval. It just makes sense, right?
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Old August 21 2013, 03:51 AM   #225
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Since the images reprinted in this book are (reputedly) poorly reproduced and superior versions can be seen elsewhere online then that's rather disappointing in of itself. They could have saved themselves the trouble and simply left the pics out. I've bought lots of nonfiction books without pics and I still got a lot out of them.

That said I find myself really wanting to read this tome particularly for the chance to learn things I never knew. And on the strength of the contents in the text I've gone ahead and ordered the book. I don't buy many books presently and collectible materiel even less lately unless it's something that really piques my interest. If this is indeed a small scale publishing run then who knows when I'll be able to get a second hand copy or an e-book version.

At present I'm only committing to this first book and the strength of it will determine my interest in the followup volumes.
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