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Old August 20 2013, 07:40 PM   #211
BillJ
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
If you believe a Next Gen reboot is possible, they're going to pull from that so called 'dead' timeline as much as NuKirk being from Iowa and NuSpock being half Vulcan.
Of course they'll use elements. But they will pick and choose the elements that fit the story and leave the rest in the past.
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Old August 20 2013, 08:17 PM   #212
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

BillJ wrote: View Post
bbjeg wrote: View Post
If you believe a Next Gen reboot is possible, they're going to pull from that so called 'dead' timeline as much as NuKirk being from Iowa and NuSpock being half Vulcan.
Of course they'll use elements. But they will pick and choose the elements that fit the story and leave the rest in the past.
Exactly. I imagine they'll remake TNG eventually. Probably when some high-powered executive or hot new director who grew up on TNG gets enough clout to make it happen.

You see this in comics all the time. As soon as a new generation of editors and writers and artists comes of age, they almost always try to revive their childhood favorites.

"Now is my chance to write that DEVIL DINOSAUR story I've been dreaming of since sixth grade!"

Somewhere out there, even as we speak, is some huge TNG fan who is going to be biggest thing in the world fifteen years from now. And if he (or she) really wants to revive TNG, people will listen ....
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Old August 20 2013, 08:20 PM   #213
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

I would be happy to see the Primeline revisited someday, perhaps in some sort of Anniversary Special or something but if it doesn't happen then I ain't gonna be crying in my beer about it.

Primeline had a very good run, better than most franchises get and I do not want to cheapen its memories by being all bitter with sour grapes over its loss.
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Old August 20 2013, 09:25 PM   #214
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Okay... first of all, it's not just the FACT that realSpock and realUhura never went beyond mild flirtation - it's a FACT that Vulcan society in general didn't go in for public displays of affection such as those done by nuSpock and nuUhura. I find it very hard to believe that the Abramsverse Vulcans would be into it, either. Spock grew up in a "don't show your emotions in public and preferably not in private, either" culture - so why is he acting not only un-Vulcan, but also unprofessionally as a Starfleet officer? Saying "it's a reboot" just doesn't excuse it. That's not Spock. It's an actor we're expected to think is Spock and react to as though he's Spock, but that character is NOT authentically Spock.
You mean their ONE public kiss on the transporter pad that came AFTER Spock's breakdown and admission to his father that he has emotions and cannot control them?
By Vulcan standards (not Sarek's standards or Amanda's or Spock's, Vulcan in general) that IS a very noticeable, unacceptable breach of decorum and manners. Any regular Vulcan would be correct in wondering if nuSpock were mentally ill, for engaging in such behavior.

Although he got there a very different way, Old Spock basically went though the same thing in TMP, realizing what folly an emotionless and purely logical life truly is. We then got a Spock who smiled a teeny bit in WoK, who wasn't afraid to tell Kirk what he meant to him. A Spock who laughed at the end of STIV and told Starfleet to "Go to hell" at the end of STVI.

What you see as "characterization rape," I see as personal growth.
RealSpock's personal growth happened over many decades (of the character's life, as well as the series). NuSpock basically went from one extreme to the other inside of 10 minutes or so (or however long it was; the in-story timespan of events on the ship wasn't anywhere near long enough for me to believe such "growth").

Belz... wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
My point is that if (for example) I'm willing to do research to understand the current plotline and character interactions on a damn soap opera
So don't assume everybody will do that like you or me. Fans sho started watching Trek in 2009 might not even be interested in the old timeline. Imagine their confusion when Vulcan is back.
Nobody's forcing them to be interested in the old timeline. I run across lots of Doctor Who fans who have absolutely zero interest in anything that happened before Christopher Eccleston. They choose to ignore (and sometimes dismiss unseen) what happened previously - some 40 years' worth of wonderful stories. If they're "confused", it's their own fault if they stay that way due to refusing to get "unconfused" (by consulting other fans and resources that could explain things to them) - and this also applies to the nuTrek fans who prefer to ignore what came before.

ComicGuy89 wrote: View Post
And as far as I know, there isn't a prohibition on romance between Starfleet officers, an instance that comes to mind is Balance of Terror, where officer Angela was engaged to her commanding officer Tomlinson. There are also numerous romantic relationships between other main characters like Jadzia and Worf, Torres and Paris, Riker and Troi, etc.
Romance isn't prohibited. But there are regulations and social conventions about how that romance is expressed. Torres and Paris were reprimanded for their blatant PDAs in Voyager. They weren't told they couldn't have a relationship. They were told to keep it off-duty and in the privacy of their quarters or the holodeck.

captain crow wrote: View Post
The "prime timeline" is dead. Deal with it and move on.
That's just rude. The "prime timeline" may be dead as far as new movies/TV is concerned. It's not dead anywhere else, so YOU deal with THAT.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Which is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. And if you ever happen to write a nuTrek novel, I won't be buying it. You're an excellent author and I enjoy your work, but only to the point where you're writing in a universe I find enjoyable.

(and for the people who will promptly yell at me for "threatening" to not buy Greg Cox's books... don't bother. It's not a threat and not a tantrum - just a comment)
Thanks for the kind words! And don't worry. I hardly expect everyone to buy all of my books, regardless of the series or subject matter. (I've learned from hard experience that you cannot give XENA books away at a TREK convention--and vise versa.) And I don't expect DS9 fans to buy my TOS books just because my name is on it.There are lots of different flavors of Trek these days and not everybody is going to like Rocky Road.
I've only ever gone to two fan events that were limited to one show - Star Trek in 1978 (an afternoon event with George Takei, in Calgary) and Doctor Who in the late '80s, at the Spokane PBS station when Sylvester McCoy was touring across the US after having taken over the role from Colin Baker. The rest of the events I've been to have been conventions where the guests have been authors, artists, editors, university professors, people from the local planetarium, and even Phil Currie, who runs the Royal Tyrrell Museum of Paleontology in Drumheller. No actors. These conventions had a wonderfully eclectic mix of people and guests, with many common interests. You could indeed have "given away" a Xena book while also selling your ST books. There are some extremely enthusiastic Xena fans in this area, even this many years after the show ended; one friend of mine started writing a fanfic crossover of Xena & Deep Space Nine!
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Old August 20 2013, 09:51 PM   #215
Nerys Myk
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Okay... first of all, it's not just the FACT that realSpock and realUhura never went beyond mild flirtation - it's a FACT that Vulcan society in general didn't go in for public displays of affection such as those done by nuSpock and nuUhura. I find it very hard to believe that the Abramsverse Vulcans would be into it, either. Spock grew up in a "don't show your emotions in public and preferably not in private, either" culture - so why is he acting not only un-Vulcan, but also unprofessionally as a Starfleet officer? Saying "it's a reboot" just doesn't excuse it. That's not Spock. It's an actor we're expected to think is Spock and react to as though he's Spock, but that character is NOT authentically Spock.
You mean their ONE public kiss on the transporter pad that came AFTER Spock's breakdown and admission to his father that he has emotions and cannot control them?
By Vulcan standards (not Sarek's standards or Amanda's or Spock's, Vulcan in general) that IS a very noticeable, unacceptable breach of decorum and manners. Any regular Vulcan would be correct in wondering if nuSpock were mentally ill, for engaging in such behavior.
No "normal Vulcans" were present. The Spock in this timeframe is the same one who smiled after touching a vibrating leaf and shouts "the women!!!!" when two female crewmates disappear. I don't think Spock at this point in his lives was overly bothered by Vulcan "decorum and manners". Even Spock later in his life in the PrimeUniverse was known to break decorum. Some of his best scenes are when he does. He does the strict Vulcan thing to get on humans' nerves.
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Old August 20 2013, 09:59 PM   #216
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Timewalker wrote: View Post

I've only ever gone to two fan events that were limited to one show - Star Trek in 1978 (an afternoon event with George Takei, in Calgary) and Doctor Who in the late '80s, at the Spokane PBS station when Sylvester McCoy was touring across the US after having taken over the role from Colin Baker. The rest of the events I've been to have been conventions where the guests have been authors, artists, editors, university professors, people from the local planetarium, and even Phil Currie, who runs the Royal Tyrrell Museum of Paleontology in Drumheller. No actors. These conventions had a wonderfully eclectic mix of people and guests, with many common interests. You could indeed have "given away" a Xena book while also selling your ST books. There are some extremely enthusiastic Xena fans in this area, even this many years after the show ended; one friend of mine started writing a fanfic crossover of Xena & Deep Space Nine!
Oh, most cons are not so specialized, I agree. I was mostly thinking of some Creation cons I attended back in the day. At Shore Leave a few weeks back, I was signing everything from Star Trek to Warehouse 13 to Iron Man and beyond.

As for Vulcan dating etiquette, it's worth remembering that Spock in not a typical Vulcan engaged in a typical Vulcan relationship. If Spock wanted to adhere to strictly Vulcan standards, he would have just entered the Vulcan Science Academy as expected, instead of joining Starfleet. He has a lot of Amanda in him, maybe even more so than in the original iteration. And I imagine that his relationship with Uhura would be even more "human" than his parents' marriage, since Sarek was a full Vulcan raised entirely by Vulcans and less likely to overcome his upbringing.

NuSpock may even feel that he is honoring the memory of his martyred mother by allowing himself to be more "human" with Uhura this time around . . ..
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Old August 20 2013, 10:21 PM   #217
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Timewalker wrote:
By Vulcan standards (not Sarek's standards or Amanda's or Spock's, Vulcan in general) that IS a very noticeable unacceptable breach of decorum and manners. Any regular Vulcan would be correct in wondering if nuSpock were mentally ill, for engaging in such behavior.
And this would differ from all of the times Spock showed emotion in TOS ("JIM!!!!" etc) and the movies how, exactly?
RealSpock's personal growth happened over many decades (of the character's life, as well as the series). NuSpock basically went from one extreme to the other inside of 10 minutes or so (or however long it was; the in-story timespan of events on the ship wasn't anywhere near long enough for me to believe such "growth").
Well, it was enough for me so each to their own. Remember that TOS and TMP were all essentially stand-alone stories, as is STXI. It's not like there was a long term TOS - TMP plan for Spock's emotional awakening which gradually unfolded.
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Old August 20 2013, 11:18 PM   #218
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

King Daniel and Greg, I think I understand your points, and correct me if I'm misstating them: You're happy for a character who appears to have overcome a severe handicap, and now he can move on and be a more well-rounded person. He no longer has to be defined by a disability.

I suppose, speaking on behalf of actual people who have ever had even a slight disability and then overcame it, that does make some sense.

But let's be fair: Here's a character in whom some of us have invested nearly a half-century of interest, and one of the reasons has been being privileged to watch him overcome, by fits and starts, a personal psychological disability. He was incapable of expressing romantic love. Oh, he's certainly capable of emotion at some level, and his repression of emotion is a personal, daily choice rather than some missing circuitry. He certainly wanted to express romantic love, as he directly implied in his apology to Christine Chapel.

But even when slightly intoxicated (or the metaphysical equivalent), he was reduced to a babbling puddle of tears. When heavily intoxicated, sure, Jill Ireland became the love of his live in three seconds. Yet the side of his character that was revealed in that episode completely and successfully repressed the part of Spock that was devoted to his duty and that was honorable as a man, in the same way that his "honor-side" had successfully repressed his sexual urges. Only through being humiliated by Kirk did he recover his memory of how to repress the feeling of being humiliated, and his honorable side return.

Now, over the years, various incidents (among them, death and rebirth) gave the man opportunities to reconcile his two halves. And it was good to watch that process happen. We appreciated the "personal growth," to borrow Daniel's phrase.

For a rewritten version of the story to rewind history and say all that personal trauma and trial and reconciliation and doubt and grief were unnecessary, and the right woman's kiss cleared everything up and things are now hunky-dory, is to devalue the previous storyline. It doesn't eliminate it from our history, but it does sorta say, "Ah, well, who cares?"

Put another way: At one level, hypothetically, it might be interesting to have rebooted a character named "Ironside" as a detective who, after being shot, underwent a life-saving operation, overcame paralysis, and now stands upright and jogs every morning. We'd be happy for him if we got to see the recovery process -- if someone were to tell that story and make it interesting and personal. But to presume the story is already told is to cheat the viewer, as well as to effectively declare the recovery process itself (the "personal growth") unimportant.

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Old August 20 2013, 11:20 PM   #219
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Timewalker wrote: View Post

Romance isn't prohibited. But there are regulations and social conventions about how that romance is expressed. Torres and Paris were reprimanded for their blatant PDAs in Voyager. They weren't told they couldn't have a relationship. They were told to keep it off-duty and in the privacy of their quarters or the holodeck.
Court Martial wrote:
SHAW: Do you think it would cause a complete breakdown of discipline if a lowly lieutenant kissed a Starship Captain on the bridge of his ship?
KIRK: Let's try. (a gentle but lingering kiss) See? No change. Discipline goes on.
SHAW: And so must the Enterprise. Goodbye, Jim.
If it's good enough for TOS, then it's good enough for the Abramsverse.
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Old August 20 2013, 11:24 PM   #220
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

DFScott wrote: View Post
For a rewritten version of the story to rewind history and say all that personal trauma and trial and reconciliation and doubt and grief were unnecessary, and the right woman's kiss cleared everything up and things are now hunky-dory, is to devalue the previous storyline. It doesn't eliminate it from our history, but it does sorta say, "Ah, well, who cares?"
I don't think the Abramsverse films have said that at all. This version of Spock has different doubts and concerns and maybe be just a bit unhinged after the destruction of his world and death of his mother. Plus, you have to figure in that he isn't as old as his TOS series counterpart.

There's more than enough room to get Spock to his TOS "self" or to take him in a completely new direction. I'm enjoying the ride.
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Old August 20 2013, 11:31 PM   #221
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Can't say I've ever heard of or thought of Spock as having a disability because he was raised for the most part in the Vulcan tradition.
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Old August 21 2013, 03:02 AM   #222
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Personally, I think the next Trek series will either be set in its own continuity or will have a continuity vague enough that it'll be hard to tell if its Prime, Abrams, or a mixture of both.

Yet your use of the term "keys" suggests you may have been one of those fans who chose to deliberately misinterpret a remark made by Seth MacFarlane two years ago. I'll hold to my ridiculous prediction that, in the unlikely event of live action tv, whoever gets those keys will answer to logic and profitability first and artistic prerogative second.



DFScott wrote: View Post
some of us have invested nearly a half-century of interest

Which makes you demographically undesirable. But Mr. Moonves would like you to know it's not personal. It's just business.
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Old August 21 2013, 03:40 AM   #223
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

thumbtack wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Personally, I think the next Trek series will either be set in its own continuity or will have a continuity vague enough that it'll be hard to tell if its Prime, Abrams, or a mixture of both.

Yet your use of the term "keys" suggests you may have been one of those fans who chose to deliberately misinterpret a remark made by Seth MacFarlane two years ago.
Um, wrong.

I couldn't care less about what Seth MacFarlane or anyone else said (especially since I don't even know what MacFarlane said anyway--and don't even want to know, really). So you're way off the mark there.

I'll hold to my ridiculous prediction that, in the unlikely event of live action tv, whoever gets those keys will answer to logic and profitability first and artistic prerogative second.
Um, whoever will get those keys will do so because they were CBS' choice and had a pitch for a series that appealed to them. That pitch could be set in any continuity, including the original, the current, or an all-new one.
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Old August 21 2013, 10:10 AM   #224
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
How so ?
You explain that without loosing the remaining old fans and confusing the new ones.
How does that answer my question ?

But was that Star Trek, really, or just a sign of the times ?
Yes.
Again. I give two choices, and you answer "yes".
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Old August 21 2013, 10:59 AM   #225
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
You mean their ONE public kiss on the transporter pad that came AFTER Spock's breakdown and admission to his father that he has emotions and cannot control them?
By Vulcan standards (not Sarek's standards or Amanda's or Spock's, Vulcan in general) that IS a very noticeable, unacceptable breach of decorum and manners. Any regular Vulcan would be correct in wondering if nuSpock were mentally ill, for engaging in such behavior.
No "normal Vulcans" were present. The Spock in this timeframe is the same one who smiled after touching a vibrating leaf and shouts "the women!!!!" when two female crewmates disappear. I don't think Spock at this point in his lives was overly bothered by Vulcan "decorum and manners". Even Spock later in his life in the PrimeUniverse was known to break decorum. Some of his best scenes are when he does. He does the strict Vulcan thing to get on humans' nerves.
Just because no normal Vulcans were present, that doesn't change Vulcan custom.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post

Romance isn't prohibited. But there are regulations and social conventions about how that romance is expressed. Torres and Paris were reprimanded for their blatant PDAs in Voyager. They weren't told they couldn't have a relationship. They were told to keep it off-duty and in the privacy of their quarters or the holodeck.
Court Martial wrote:
SHAW: Do you think it would cause a complete breakdown of discipline if a lowly lieutenant kissed a Starship Captain on the bridge of his ship?
KIRK: Let's try. (a gentle but lingering kiss) See? No change. Discipline goes on.
SHAW: And so must the Enterprise. Goodbye, Jim.
If it's good enough for TOS, then it's good enough for the Abramsverse.
You're missing a very important point. Kirk was the Captain. If he decided it was okay for him to kiss a lieutenant on his bridge, it was okay because it's his ship.

Tom and B'Elanna weren't Captains, or anything close. It was Janeway who got to decide if they could engage in public displays of affection, and she decided they couldn't.
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