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Old August 20 2013, 01:57 PM   #91
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Reverend wrote: View Post
^IIRC Sternbach always said that the red glowey bit isn't a reaction thruster like a rocket so much as an engine/reactor exhaust vent like the one on your car.
Fascinating suggestion! But after Praetor posted this script excerpt - "A mid-sized Federation Science Vessel approaching at impulse power." - it seems to suggest somewhat that what we saw was the "impulse power". (Well, should the "mid-size" remark require a salt shaker, this might also apply to the rest of this line. )

Reverend wrote: View Post
The idea that impulse engines used reaction thrust never made much sense to me anyway. I mean I'm no rocket scientist, but I imagine the sheer mass required to accelerate a ship up to .5C in anything less than a few months would be ridiculously impractical.
Quite a can of worms, but we probably have to deal with it, regardless whether we like it or not (BTW, encouraging that I'm apparently not the only one who suspects this could be a pre-TOS ship, thanks for mentioning it).

@ Praetor

I see you have superimposed some lines on the VFX shot to suggest conjectural deck levels.

How tall do you estimate each deck and what were to happen if you allocated some more space at the bottom for antigrav and other components necessary for atmospheric flight and touchdown while still maintaining an equal height deck level for the remaining interior space?

@ Dukhat

I'm not speaking for Mr. Probert as he is most assuredly and very able to do that for himself, should he feel this to be necessary.

I was stating truthfully what he had tried to accomplish over the years (to dissociate himself from the altered design), mentioned two reasons why this had obviously become necessary, and expressed my personal doubt that he supposedly considered the design (he tried to disscociate himself from) "true".

I consider the background models including the wall sculpture to be canon (they were onscreen), you don't, so we agree to disagree. However, noticing your obvious interest and the time and energy you seem to invest hunting down hard-to-see background models, I can't help but wonder whether you consider these to be canon or only those you personally like?

Bob
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Old August 20 2013, 05:39 PM   #92
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Reverend, my good cleric, thanks for dropping by! Indeed your works have stood the test of time. Thanks for sharing that dedication plaque too. Mayweather, eh?

Reverend wrote: View Post
Not sure what else I can add to the discussion beyond posting a link to the old schematic thread. Suffice to say I've always worked from the presumption that the Oberth was a late 22nd century design (hence the log reg) and was heavily influenced by Vulcan design aesthetics (hence the unique look.)
I think Vulcan involvement makes all kinds of sense considering it is a science ship. What do others think about this, and the 22nd century notion?

Reverend wrote: View Post
I don't think I ever totally settled on a size for the thing, but I'm pretty sure it was in the 180/200m ballpark.
I didn't remember she ended up so big... that certainly ends up in the "mid-size" range to me.

Reverend wrote: View Post
IIRC I came the the opinion that the model makers intended it to be a lot bigger (by a factor of at least 2) than what the official length ended up being.
I'd agree with you on that too, again going back to the windows particularly on the bridge dome.

Timo wrote: View Post
My issue with making it a primary impulse engine would be that it would seem to not be along the center of mass...
Well, impulse engines never are. Unless one fine-tunes the mass of the nacelles, the one element that can be assumed to noticeably differ in density from the rest of the ship.
Fair enough.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Fascinating suggestion! But after Praetor posted this script excerpt - "A mid-sized Federation Science Vessel approaching at impulse power." - it seems to suggest somewhat that what we saw was the "impulse power". (Well, should the "mid-size" remark require a salt shaker, this might also apply to the rest of this line. )
At least that it was at impulse power, and therefore her tailpipe was working.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I see you have superimposed some lines on the VFX shot to suggest conjectural deck levels.

How tall do you estimate each deck and what were to happen if you allocated some more space at the bottom for antigrav and other components necessary for atmospheric flight and touchdown while still maintaining an equal height deck level for the remaining interior space?
Well, if we wanted to we could take an approach similar to Excelsior and try to visually scale it based on what we know of its size relative to other vessels, and go from there. For the image above, I basically just placed the decks were they were before. Reverend might elaborate on how he arrived at the deck placements he used - I think I pretty much based mine on his. I say I think because it's been a while.
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Old August 20 2013, 06:17 PM   #93
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Praetor wrote: View Post
Should we also consider the wrecked Vico while we're at it? We know it to be a separate model, but perhaps there is some merit.

We definitely should, since that appears to show a four-deck saucer section that would, in more ways than one, be ALOT more consistent with both the window placement and the act that those shuttle bay doors have to be large enough to accommodate actual shuttlecraft (which are somewhat taller than a full deck anyway) and still leave some clearance to fly in and out.

So a four-deck saucer, two-deck dome, just going by the damage cutaway.
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Old August 20 2013, 09:15 PM   #94
Timo
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

What do others think about this, and the 22nd century notion?
Well, the curved pylons make a new sort of sense from the ENT viewpoint, being half a warp ring - Earth-style nacelles apparently make up for the other half.

But surely there should be "Vulcan influence" in basically all starship designs anyway?

As for that "four-decker" wreck, I don't quite see the merit of assuming that those fancy openings in the saucer are supposed to accommodate shuttlecraft. They don't look a bit like the Enterprise shuttlebay, and there's no indication the Grissom had shuttles let alone ones operating from those holes.

And the central dome doesn't become a convincing bridge until one scales up the ship to at least four times the "two-decker", 120m size. It's wasted effort IMHO when we could just as well assume the bridge is sunken deep inside the saucer.

Actually, FWIW, "Hero Worship" and "The Naked Now" both suggest the bridge is actually at the forward edge of the saucer, with one vertical wall bordering on empty space. Perhaps the bow opening is actually the bridge windshield? (A typical late 22nd/early 23rd century feature, that .)

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Old August 20 2013, 10:04 PM   #95
Praetor
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
Should we also consider the wrecked Vico while we're at it? We know it to be a separate model, but perhaps there is some merit.

We definitely should, since that appears to show a four-deck saucer section that would, in more ways than one, be ALOT more consistent with both the window placement and the act that those shuttle bay doors have to be large enough to accommodate actual shuttlecraft (which are somewhat taller than a full deck anyway) and still leave some clearance to fly in and out.

So a four-deck saucer, two-deck dome, just going by the damage cutaway.
What's amusing to me is that the cutaway diagram from the same episode directly contradicts the model. See here. Two decks in the saucer.

I do think scaling along these lines and seeing what length it yields is a worthwhile effort, and may take it up this evening.

Timo wrote: View Post
But surely there should be "Vulcan influence" in basically all starship designs anyway?
True.

Timo wrote: View Post
As for that "four-decker" wreck, I don't quite see the merit of assuming that those fancy openings in the saucer are supposed to accommodate shuttlecraft. They don't look a bit like the Enterprise shuttlebay, and there's no indication the Grissom had shuttles let alone ones operating from those holes.
And as Robert Comsol pointed out, the side notches don't make much sense for shuttlebays, either. Hard to navigate into, those would be.

Timo wrote: View Post
And the central dome doesn't become a convincing bridge until one scales up the ship to at least four times the "two-decker", 120m size. It's wasted effort IMHO when we could just as well assume the bridge is sunken deep inside the saucer.
Also true.

Timo wrote: View Post
Actually, FWIW, "Hero Worship" and "The Naked Now" both suggest the bridge is actually at the forward edge of the saucer, with one vertical wall bordering on empty space.
I think Reverend was trying to mitigate that by having there be a second brdige at the forward end of the pod.
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Old August 20 2013, 11:01 PM   #96
yenny
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Look like the Vico has 15 decks. Which mean 40meters/131.233ft divided by 2.5 meters/8.2ft = 15.97 decks.

The shuttle bay looks like 2 decks 5 meters/16.4ft.

Those measurements are from floor to floor, not floor to ceiling. Floor to ceiling is likely 8ft. And floor to ceiling in the shuttlebay is 16ft.
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Old August 20 2013, 11:30 PM   #97
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Praetor wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
Not sure what else I can add to the discussion beyond posting a link to the old schematic thread. Suffice to say I've always worked from the presumption that the Oberth was a late 22nd century design (hence the log reg) and was heavily influenced by Vulcan design aesthetics (hence the unique look.)
I think Vulcan involvement makes all kinds of sense considering it is a science ship. What do others think about this, and the 22nd century notion?
I'd be happy and content with an early 23rd Century notion. I agree that "science" in Star Trek has a certain Vulcan connotation - and last but not least we had the "Vulcan long-range shuttle" in TMP where the passenger "module" equally detached from the warp-drive sled in a fashion not too dissimilar of what I expect the Oberth Class to be capable of.

The debatable thing here is "Vulcan" long-range shuttle, "Spock's long-range shuttle" may have been more appropriate. The Official TMP blueprints do not suggest this to be an exclusive Vulcan design, but they say "Class: Vulcan" (Vulcan Class - what's up with that ? )

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
How tall do you estimate each deck and what were to happen if you allocated some more space at the bottom for antigrav and other components necessary for atmospheric flight and touchdown while still maintaining an equal height deck level for the remaining interior space?
Praetor wrote: View Post
Well, if we wanted to we could take an approach similar to Excelsior and try to visually scale it based on what we know of its size relative to other vessels, and go from there.
I don't know. As you just demonstrated yourself with the SS Vico and the contrast between monitor display and model, the departments couldn't even make up their mind what size the ship should have, mind put it at a reliable scale with other ships to draw useful conclusions from.

The starting point would be Star Trek III and the suggested overall length of 120 meters, IMHO. Based on that what would be the deck height in your VFX composite?

Bob
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Old August 21 2013, 12:34 AM   #98
Reverend
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Timo wrote: View Post
What do others think about this, and the 22nd century notion?
Well, the curved pylons make a new sort of sense from the ENT viewpoint, being half a warp ring - Earth-style nacelles apparently make up for the other half.

But surely there should be "Vulcan influence" in basically all starship designs anyway?
Influence sure, but the way I choose to interpret it, this is from the Federation's second generation of starship design. While most of the early Fed & SF ships would still be mostly designed built by the individual member worlds just to keep up the numbers, the second wave stuff would have started to show increased hybridization both in terms of technology and aesthetics. Later designs would be increasingly homogenized, but in this transitional phase you could still see strong a cultural
aesthetic at play.
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Old August 21 2013, 01:01 AM   #99
Praetor
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The debatable thing here is "Vulcan" long-range shuttle, "Spock's long-range shuttle" may have been more appropriate. The Official TMP blueprints do not suggest this to be an exclusive Vulcan design, but they say "Class: Vulcan" (Vulcan Class - what's up with that ? )
I've always thought that the shuttle was of Vulcan registry - but there's nothing precluding that it was designed by a Vulcan firm. I believe Jackill chose to interpret it this way. It's worth consideration that it was an idea of Mr. Probert that the refit Enterprise might carry similarly designed shuttlecrafts.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I don't know. As you just demonstrated yourself with the SS Vico and the contrast between monitor display and model, the departments couldn't even make up their mind what size the ship should have, mind put it at a reliable scale with other ships to draw useful conclusions from.

The starting point would be Star Trek III and the suggested overall length of 120 meters, IMHO. Based on that what would be the deck height in your VFX composite?
The height I used there was based on the prior cross section's height workout, and I think there it was based on 12 foot decks. (FWIW, at a length of 120 meters I believe the height works out to around 25 meters.)

This also bears viewing, it appears to be attributed to Mr. Probert.



I believe this was prepared at the start of TNG to orient everyone on the size of established (or in the C's case, planned) starships.

Reverend wrote: View Post
Influence sure, but the way I choose to interpret it, this is from the Federation's second generation of starship design. While most of the early Fed & SF ships would still be mostly designed built by the individual member worlds just to keep up the numbers, the second wave stuff would have started to show increased hybridization both in terms of technology and aesthetics. Later designs would be increasingly homogenized, but in this transitional phase you could still see strong a cultural aesthetic at play.
I dig it. So by movie or 24th century era, you see truly homogenous designs, or sooner?
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Old August 21 2013, 03:02 AM   #100
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Praetor wrote: View Post
I dig it. So by movie or 24th century era, you see truly homogenous designs, or sooner?
FWIW, the leading Vulcan starships of the 22nd century were in the neighborhood of 600 meters long.
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Old August 21 2013, 05:40 AM   #101
Dukhat
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I consider the background models including the wall sculpture to be canon (they were onscreen), you don't, so we agree to disagree. However, noticing your obvious interest and the time and energy you seem to invest hunting down hard-to-see background models, I can't help but wonder whether you consider these to be canon or only those you personally like?
Hmm, I thought I'd made that clear in my last post...obviously not. Well then...

This has nothing to do with what I "personally like." The wall sculptures are "canon" in the fact that they were shown on screen, but in the context of the show, the intent was that those sculptures represented all the Enterprises from the aircraft carrier all the way to the Enterprise-D, for the first few years of the show. However, once the Ambassador class was represented by the Sternbach/Jein model, the wall hanging became invalidated. At best, it then represented the previous Enterprises in more of an abstract way, as the Ent-C version now looked nothing like the studio model (just like how the Ent-B would also eventually look different from the standard Excelsior seen on the wall hanging). That's probably why they were all removed only a few years into the series.

One could also argue that, as a retcon, those wall sculptures did not in fact show the Enterprise history (even though that was the original intention), but rather instead were just sculptures of random Starfleet vessels. In that case, there could be a precedent that Starfleet indeed had a ship class that looked like that side view of Probert's design, But it wouldn't be the Ambassador class then (and yes, I'm well aware of the idea that Probert's ship could be the prototype for the Ambassador which then changed significantly in design later on, but unless that idea is canonically established, it's nothing more than a theory).
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Old August 21 2013, 11:33 AM   #102
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

@ Reverend

Beautiful explanation that feels credible and real.

@ Praetor

I hope I got that right. You calculated an average deck height of 12' for the Grissom? That would seem like too much overhead space for a vessel as small as this to me.

@ Dukhat

I think it all comes down whether you feel that the latest "contradiction" overwrites previous continuity and takes its place or whether the previous continuity remains intact and the "contradiction" requires rationalization.

The depiction of the Enterprise-B doesn't cause me headaches. I rather think that was some kind of upgrade to improve transwarp performance and/or reduce the adverse physical effects it might have had on the crew. Eventually they reduced the volume of these components and became able to retrofit the ship to its original appearance (as displayed in the conference lounge), which is actually how I remember seeing most Excelsior's in TNG (although several of these - from a production point of view - were apparently stand-ins for Probert's unvisualized Ambassador Class, e.g. USS Fearless)

Bob
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Old August 21 2013, 02:29 PM   #103
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I hope I got that right. You calculated an average deck height of 12' for the Grissom? That would seem like too much overhead space for a vessel as small as this to me.
Yeah, I was just adhering to the Sternbach standard of 10 feet for actual space, 2 feet for miscellanea. It could certainly be thinner given the ship's size. A 10 feet analysis might be in order.
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Old August 21 2013, 05:22 PM   #104
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I think it all comes down whether you feel that the latest "contradiction" overwrites previous continuity and takes its place or whether the previous continuity remains intact and the "contradiction" requires rationalization.
In the case of the actual studio model versus a featureless side view wall sculpture, the studio model obviously overwrites it, and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone other than yourself who would disagree with that logic.
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Old August 21 2013, 11:02 PM   #105
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

^^ I'm starting to realize that "The misunderstood ships of Star Trek?" might have been the better thread title.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
In the case of the actual studio model versus a featureless side view wall sculpture, the studio model obviously overwrites it, and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone other than yourself who would disagree with that logic.
While obviously featureless the golden wall sculpture reveals the essence, the distinctive sleek lines and beautiful proportions that set Andrew Probert's Enterprise-C apart from the VFX model that appeared
  • literally out of nowhere and
  • exclusively in(side) an alternate (!) TNG reality (One could wonder whether the true Enterprise-C in the "real" timeline really looked like that VFX model).
I'd dare to say that the Enterprise-C wall sculpture in amount of total TNG screen time had more exposure (as a part of the conference lounge) than the new Ambassador Class VFX model during the entire run of TNG.

Bob

@ Praetor

Concerning the size comparison chart you provided in post # 99, I think there's bigger fish to fry than just the overall length figures of the Excelsior...notice the second starship from the top. I think some people would like to see this erased and overwritten...
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