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Old August 19 2013, 11:14 PM   #181
BillJ
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

In my opinion, those people waiting for the Prime timeline to come back, are going to be waiting for a really long time. I really don't think we'll see a return to it in my lifetime and I'm 42.
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Old August 19 2013, 11:44 PM   #182
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Personally, I think the next Trek series will either be set in its own continuity or will have a continuity vague enough that it'll be hard to tell if its Prime, Abrams, or a mixture of both.
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Old August 20 2013, 12:09 AM   #183
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

I think it's the thread's Question that's getting people riled up. 'Do fans want the prime timeline back?' The thing is there is several different types of fans. If this was targeted to a certain area; TOS generation, Voyager generation, or NuTrek generation; the thread would flow more evenly. Lucky for me, I've found enjoyment in all of their work so far. I hope they can keep outdoing themselves.
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Old August 20 2013, 12:17 AM   #184
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Belz... wrote: View Post
I has NOTHING to do with intelligence or using brain cells or not. It's simply about the amount of dedication to a franchise. Most people don't care enough about Star Trek to even know the difference. It's a fact, even if YOU personally know the difference.
My point is that if (for example) I'm willing to do research to understand the current plotline and character interactions on a damn soap opera, a Star Trek fan - most of whom are generally smarter people than the average soap fan - should be willing to ask a friend why a character was alive in one episode and dead in another (possibly one episode was a Mirror-universe one where the mirror-character was killed but the regular character wasn't). And if there's nobody to ask in RL, there are always fan communities like this very forum where most of us could easily explain the situation.

Dumb down. To make smarter things more stupid, so they're not so difficult to understand or think about.
No, it's not. Please explain how it was dumbed down, don't assume that everybody agrees with you.
You're the one who assumes people should agree with you. I know there are people in this thread who don't agree with me.

The Abrams movie, to me, was like watching a cartoon. I've already explained this. I'm not going to do it again - please read my previous posts.

We could have more intelligent stories, and less character assassination.
Again, your opinion, not a fact.

It also doesn't answer my question.
Yes, it does answer your question. You just don't like the answer. Character assassination, aka character rape. To make the characters act completely out of established character traits, just for plot point, not because it's how the character would normally act in such a situation. Example: the ridiculous public displays of affection between Spock and Uhura. It may titillate the younger fans who don't remember or never saw how real Spock and real Uhura related to each other in TOS, but it's not how the characters were established or developed. Their relationship was always based on mutual respect, and never went beyond the mild flirtation in one or two early episodes.
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Old August 20 2013, 12:50 AM   #185
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
bbjeg wrote: View Post
They were merely remakes priorly, comic books were the first time they used the term. It was when they dropped the previous history and started the story afresh. They've done it many times and have gone back and continued previous stories. IMO Ultimate X-Men sucked but Astonishing X-Men (which was tied to Uncanny X-Men's earth) was great.
Been reading comics since the Sixities. Reboots didn't begin them.
I'm not saying reboots began comics, I'm saying they started in them.
Typo on my part. That should read "begin with them".

And no, comics did not create the idea of the reboot. As Greg and I pointed out its be going on forever. Probably as far back as the first storytellers.

Creators were doing it before many people even knew how to use computers.
You do know comics pre-date modern computers, right?
Yes, I do. That was my point. Comic and other media were rebooting characters long before fans began calling the process a reboot.

Ultimate X-Men isn't a reboot. The other X-men comics are still being published. The Ultimate version exists in a different continuity.
Reboots are 'different continuities', and that teen reboot Wolverine Jimmy Hudson is no James (Logan) Howlet. I'm happy he doesn't exist outside of Ultimate X-Men and that Logan isn't dead.
No. If the original X-Men is still being publish, how can the Ultimate version have rebooted it? The Ultimate line is something different than a reboot, even though its a different take on the Marvel heroes. The closest thing I can think of is the Earth 1/Earth 2 situation in the Silver Age. Though the Silver version of Green Lantern, the Flash, Hawkman and the Atom were reboots.
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Old August 20 2013, 12:51 AM   #186
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

But isn't that the point of a reboot, to have a different take on a character? Reboots never pretend that their characters are the same as ones they are adapting off, that's why they're reboots. Adaptations. They can pick and choose.

I understand being irritated if they were supposed to be the same characters but failed to be so. For example, if Leonard Nimoy's Spock in the reboot movies is drastically different from his portrayal before this. Or another example, if they made an actual prequel to TOS instead of a reboot and wanted to make sure that these are the same characters that will grow into William Shatner and company. In that case, there may be reason for being annoyed if characters feel utterly different from before.

Reboots allow a new take on a character while keeping certain recognizable elements. Maybe that's what you'd call a cartoon, where new Spock is just enough Spock that you'd know he's Spock, but different enough that he's not really Spock (Prime). I wouldn't have it any other way, since it is suppose to be a new take on the characters.
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Old August 20 2013, 01:23 AM   #187
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Example: the ridiculous public displays of affection between Spock and Uhura. It may titillate the younger fans who don't remember or never saw how real Spock and real Uhura related to each other in TOS, but it's not how the characters were established or developed. Their relationship was always based on mutual respect, and never went beyond the mild flirtation in one or two early episodes.
That's absolutely true--as far as the original series is concerned. But you seem to be missing the point that the new versions of the characters are not supposed to be identical to the previous versions. New timeline, new universe, new twists and character dynamics. That's kinda the idea.

I find it telling that you refers to the original versions as "real Spock" and "real Uhura"--as opposed to, say, the previous versions of Spock and Uhura, which is a less judgmental or dogmatic way to phrase it. If you keep expecting NuTrek to be completely faithful to the earlier version, you're bound to be disappointed.

To drag in poor Holmes again, Benedict Cumberbatch does not portray Sherlock exactly the way he was portrayed in the original books or in any earlier movie or TV versions. Ditto for Robert Downey Jr. and the guy on ELEMENTARY (whose name escapes me at the moment). Doesn't matter.

Different actors (and writers) are going to portray the same characters differently, especially when retelling the stories generations apart. That's not an "assassination" or even inaccurate. It's just a new and different approach to the characters.

To channel Seven of Nine, exactly how the characters of Spock and Uhura were established or developed back in the day is irrelevant. The old Spock and Uhura were indeed just friends and colleagues; the new Spock and Uhura have a closer relationship.

Neither version is wrong.
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Old August 20 2013, 01:36 AM   #188
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Uhura wasn't above teasing Spock.

Charlie X wrote:
UHURA: I'm sorry. I did it again, didn't I. (Spock smirks and begins playing again) (singing) Oh, on the starship Enterprise There's someone who's in Satan's guise Whose devil ears and devil eyes Could rip your heart from you. At first, his look could hypnotize And then his touch would barbarize His alien love could victimize And rip your heart from you. And that's why female astronauts, Oh, very female astronauts Wait terrified and overwrought To find what he will do. Oh, girls in space, be wary, be wary, be wary, Girls in space, be wary. We know not what he'll do.
Just saying.
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Old August 20 2013, 01:55 AM   #189
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Or how about this exchange? I believe more would have developed if Spock prime had allowed it.

No, you have an answer. I'm an illogical woman who's beginning to feel too much a part of that communications console. Why don't you tell me I'm an attractive young lady or ask me if I've ever been in love? Tell me how planet Vulcan looks when the moon is full.
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Old August 20 2013, 02:39 AM   #190
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
I'm willing to do research to understand the current plotline and character interactions on a damn soap opera, a Star Trek fan - most of whom are generally smarter people than the average soap fan...
Hey, Sci-Fi soap opera. There's a difference.
Yes, it does answer your question. You just don't like the answer. Character assassination, aka character rape. To make the characters act completely out of established character traits, just for plot point, not because it's how the character would normally act in such a situation. Example: the ridiculous public displays of affection between Spock and Uhura. It may titillate the younger fans who don't remember or never saw how real Spock and real Uhura related to each other in TOS, but it's not how the characters were established or developed. Their relationship was always based on mutual respect, and never went beyond the mild flirtation in one or two early episodes.
It's more like character 'temporal weapon ship'ed (if I haven't been dorky enough). I agree with most of what you say. IMO The NuTrek vision, though a hell of an action flick, pales in comparison to TOS. They traded off the overall character development and relationship for trust and rash decisions. I made the leap over to fan because they had Nemoy and Nero's back story and the fact that they didn't dissapear. I mean how can Spock built a blackhole ship on Vulcan, get pulled back with Nero, and watch the planet (that would later build the ship that sent him back) be destroyed, without ceasing to be? If Janeway's theories were true Future Spock, Nero, and their ships would have dissapeared, and NuTrek's Starfleet would be saying 'What happened to Vulcan?' (IMO, Star Trek's time flow is stubborn. Maybe Picard in FC didn't have to perform a causality loop and if he simply ported back along his temporal carrier wave, the Borg future and the Enterprise E normal timeline would have existed.) So Kirk's dad dies, he's born in space, and he has an asshole for a step-dad (that he didn't listen to); It's believable he would have been raised the same, Prime Trek Kirk's father was in Starfleet, and he grew up in a stay on Earth (Iowa) family (daddy wasn't there); So the group is younger; maybe after Nero's attack parents like Chekov's waited to have kids. NuTrek is an honest reboot IMO (and I too disliked the Spock/Uhura thing), and it's not like all Reboots defiantly supersed their predecessors.

Last edited by bbjeg; August 20 2013 at 03:39 AM.
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Old August 20 2013, 02:44 AM   #191
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

BillJ wrote: View Post
In my opinion, those people waiting for the Prime timeline to come back, are going to be waiting for a really long time. I really don't think we'll see a return to it in my lifetime and I'm 42.
Way ahead of you at 45, same thing.
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Old August 20 2013, 03:16 AM   #192
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
And no, comics did not create the idea of the reboot. As Greg and I pointed out its be going on forever. Probably as far back as the first storytellers.
I was talking about the term 'reboot', where the word originated.
Ultimate X-Men isn't a reboot. The other X-men comics are still being published. The Ultimate version exists in a different continuity.
Reboots are 'different continuities'...
No. If the original X-Men is still being publish, how can the Ultimate version have rebooted it?
When characters like the 'Uncanny X-Men' started reaching their 50's, the Ultimate timeline was created to make them in there 20's again. The 'Uncanny' X-Men had war time comics.

The Ultimate line is something different than a reboot, even though its a different take on the Marvel heroes.
Reboots are 'different continuities'. The silver and bronze age were reboots. All that 'earth-645' means is reboot/remake/revamp #19, and each had there own continuity. I liked the 'Astonishing' X-Men reboot because it rebooted 'Uncanny' X-Men the way they should have, they did all that stuff 'Uncanny' did, just later. Don't get me started on 'Ultimate' Wolverine.

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Old August 20 2013, 03:30 AM   #193
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Whenever I want to revisit "Trek Prime" I'll just watch an episode of Star Trek, any time I want. They're available on DVD, and on Netflix and Amazon instant services.

As far as bringing "Trek Prime" back in a new form, I agree that this will be highly unlikely. Personally, I still wouldn't mind a new Trek series set in the JJverse, despite the fact that I wasn't crazy about the last movie. Star Trek always worked better as a TV series.

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Old August 20 2013, 04:14 AM   #194
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
And no, comics did not create the idea of the reboot. As Greg and I pointed out its be going on forever. Probably as far back as the first storytellers.
I was talking about the term 'reboot', where the word originated.
Was that ever in dispute? I even mentioned its origin in this post.

Ultimate X-Men isn't a reboot. The other X-men comics are still being published. The Ultimate version exists in a different continuity.No. If the original X-Men is still being publish, how can the Ultimate version have rebooted it?
When characters like the 'Uncanny X-Men' started reaching their 50's, the Ultimate timeline was created to make them in there 20's again. The 'Uncanny' X-Men had war time comics.
Which X-Men, other than the obvious ones like Prof. X and Wolverine were ever said to be in their 50s o older? Not the original five or most of the All New All Different ones.
The Ultimate line is something different than a reboot, even though its a different take on the Marvel heroes.Reboots are 'different continuities'. The silver and bronze age were reboots. All that 'earth-645' means is reboot/remake/revamp #19, and each had there own continuity
Uh, when was there a reboot in the Bronze Age? It flows pretty seamlessly from the Silver Age. DC's preCrisis continuity runs from around 1955 ( the Martian Manhunter's debut) through 1986 ( the end of Crisis On Infinite Earths), encompassing the Silver and Bronze Ages.

I liked the 'Astonishing' X-Men reboot because it rebooted 'Uncanny' X-Men the way they should have, they did all that stuff 'Uncanny' did, just later. Don't get me started on 'Ultimate' Wolverine.
There was a reboot in Astonishing X-men? Explain that one. I thought it was just a new X-Men title. As far as I know its in the same continuity as every Marvel Comic since published since 1961 (FF#1).

You must be unfamiliar with things like the retconn and the sliding time scale as used in comics. The FF didn't blast off into space in 1961. The blasted off into space 10 or 15 years prior to what ever the current date is. Tony Stark didn't get shrapnel in his heart during the Vietnam War. Captain America didn't get de-iced in 1964. It all changes as time moves forward. The characters do not age in real time. These little tweaks are called retcons, not reboots.
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Old August 20 2013, 08:11 AM   #195
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

BillJ wrote: View Post
bbjeg wrote: View Post
I'm not saying go back to the way they were, because those ships have passed, I'm saying press forward. They could have and still can, we'll see after the next NuTrek installment.
They aren't going back to the Prime continuity, they simply aren't going to spend a hundred-million dollars to tie the hands their new show-runners because a few hardcore fans can't let go.

Sorry.
Did I ask them to go back to the prime continuity because I think nuTrek is drivel? No. While I sincerely wish they would (and get better actors and writers), I only state my opinion that I think it's stupid, and I will go back to enjoying my TOS and Voyager stories. I'm sure they won't starve because they won't be getting any share of my money for a theatre seat, and I'm also sure they wouldn't care if they knew.

DFScott wrote: View Post
I think maybe we're dancing around the fundamental questions now, instead of attacking them head-on. I think the questions we should be debating (because we may all have wildly opposite views on this) are:
  1. What parts of Star Trek are critical ingredients for you to be able to enjoy the commercial products of the franchise as Star Trek, and by how much?
  2. What parts of Star Trek can and should be cast aside in order to give the story the freedom to move in new directions and avoid casting new stories in old templates?
Good questions.

Intelligent characters are critical. NuKirk is not someone I can possibly imagine being capable of giving - and making the audience believe - the ethics lessons and moral philosophy of realKirk's speeches.

Intelligent stories are critical, and ones that make some effort to extrapolate science in a plausible way (as much as current RL knowledge and established in-universe knowledge allows)

Cast aside some of the utterly trivial details. ie. I do not give a damn what Gowron's cousin's hairdresser's husband's commanding officer thinks about the state of politics on the Klingon homeworld. I really don't. It's boring beyond belief, and is the kind of material that would go over better in a novel than in a TV episode or movie.

It wasn't "the prime timeline" that I wanted. It was the prime characters. And in the story we have now, the events which the writers staged to change the storyline have altered the characters so drastically that I do not perceive them as the same people -- just different actors wearing something reminiscent of their clothes.
This is it exactly. I could take Kirk et. al in a different timeline if he still talked and acted and thought like Kirk. NuKirk is a spoiled little ass, and nuSpock isn't any better. Neither of them act like adults, and as I said - I can't fathom either of them having the maturity to pull off anything remotely as thoughtful as what happened in even the worst of the TOS episodes. I'd trust TOS Kirk and Spock with my life. I wouldn't trust nuKirk and nuSpock to clean my cats' litter box.


Greg Cox wrote: View Post
It's just that there always seems to be a whiff of denial to these debates, as though a certain segment of fans are still clinging to the idea that the reboot is just a temporary detour and we'll get back to the "real" Trek eventually. Which, from a practical standpoint, strikes me as unrealistic.
Which is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. And if you ever happen to write a nuTrek novel, I won't be buying it. You're an excellent author and I enjoy your work, but only to the point where you're writing in a universe I find enjoyable.

(and for the people who will promptly yell at me for "threatening" to not buy Greg Cox's books... don't bother. It's not a threat and not a tantrum - just a comment)

Mysterion wrote: View Post
^^^
No doubt. Hell, it's been almost 34 years now, and there are folks who still don't accept the TMP klingons as really being klingons. And even though it's been explained on-screen, there are still people who cling (no pun intended) to incredibly convoluted theories to explian why there are two different kinds of klingons.
I was one of them. But after having read an excellent series of fanfic stories by various Orion Press authors, I have changed my mind. The reason is that these authors came up with a logical, sensible, plausible, in-universe scenario for the change. It makes sense to me and the stories were terrific.

BillJ wrote: View Post
In my opinion, those people waiting for the Prime timeline to come back, are going to be waiting for a really long time. I really don't think we'll see a return to it in my lifetime and I'm 42.
Who's waiting? I'd be ecstatic if it did, but I'm not going to wait and pine like an abandoned wife on a widow's walk.
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