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Old August 19 2013, 01:33 PM   #16
Christopher
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

BritishSeaPower wrote: View Post
I haven't read it yet, but doesn't the Marvel comic Star Trek: Untold Voyages make the case that the original Marvel run was part of a "new ongoing mission" between TMP and TWOK? I was told that aside from some wonkiness about setting up TWOK elements a few years earlier than it should, it seems to work fairly well as "bridging" the Second Five-Year Mission concept.
^Uhh, the original 1980 Marvel run was explicitly presented as a new ongoing mission after TMP. There was no need to retcon that later; it was overtly the case from the beginning. Just about every post-TMP novel or comic since then has been, has had to be, in a post-TMP ongoing mission, so it was hardly an innovation for Untold Voyages to follow that established precedent. And UV didn't reference the 1980 run in any way, as far as I recall. The '80 run wasn't that well-regarded, and I doubt Marvel was eager to remind people of it.

Maybe what you're thinking of is the cover to UV #1, which had the caption "Tales from the Second Five-Year Mission!" But that was far from the first mention of a post-TMP 5-year mission; for instance, The Captain's Daughter had mentioned it three years before UV #1 came out, and I'm sure there were earlier references as well.
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Old August 19 2013, 05:08 PM   #17
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

I can't speak definitively for someone else, of course, but I think the only point JWolf was trying to make is that there has never been a single canonical reference to a second five-year mission. It's an assumption made by the tie-in material, but not technically backed up by anything onscreen, and (hypothetically) someone could try to argue for/portray something else happening during that period.
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Old August 19 2013, 05:45 PM   #18
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

^If that were what he were saying (and I'm not convinced it is), I'd agree with it in principle. However, the idea of a post-TMP 5-year mission is asserted in The Captain's Daughter, which is a book I count as part of the modern continuity (since it introduced the portrayal of John Harriman that subsequent books have followed) and which I referenced in Ex Machina. The Darkness Drops Again also references the idea that the post-TMP mission was 5 years long, for consistency with ExM. So it's part of the modern novel continuity's take on post-TMP events, though as we've seen with Crucible, there is room for other approaches in different continuities.
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Old August 19 2013, 09:57 PM   #19
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

So I've updated my TMP-era 5 Year Mission reading order. I've added notes about placement. These notes are according to writer's intent and story content.


The Second 5-Year-Mission Reading Order

2273

Night Whispers (immediately before TMP)
The Motion Picture
Renewal (immediately follows TMP-version 1)
Shadows of the Machine (immediately follows TMP-version 3)
Ex Machina (immediately follows TMP-version 2)
Mere Anarchy: The Darkness Drops Again
Kobayashi Maru

2274

Forgotten History part 2 (Spock on leave)
Worlds Collide (Spock on leave)

2275

Forgotten History part3 (Spock has returned)
Home is the Hunter
Enemy Unseen
Past Imperfect
Firestorm (5 years after Elaan of Troyuis)
Ice Trap (8 years after Chekov joins the crew)
Shell Game
Death Count
Silent Cries
The Wounded Sky
Rihannsu: My Enemy, My Ally
Doctor's Orders
Spock's World (halfway point of 5 year mission)
The Better Man (2 years into mission per author's intent)

2276

Covenant of the Crown (18 years after Kirk was a Lt. Commander)
Time Trap
Rihannsu: The Romulan Way (1 year after My Enemy, My Ally)
Rihannsu: Sword Hunt
Rihannsu: Honor Blade
Rihannsu: The Empty Chair

2278

Pandora's Principle (6 years after Spock's leave)
Rules of Engagement (near final mission)
Deep Domain (final mission- version 1)
Odyssey's End (final mission- version 2)



Notes-
A. I used the Pocket Timeline, then tweaked it per comments here.

B. Mere Anarchy: The Darkness Drops Again and Forgotten History are placed per Christopher Bennett's comments.

C. Home is the Hunter is included even though it contradicts In the Name of Honor because that isn't an issue for the time frame of this reading order.

D. I included the Untold Voyages comics.
Past Imperfect was intended as a second year story, so I placed it just before the L.A.Graf stories.

E. Silent Cries focuses on Sulu, Chekov and Uhura so I placed it with the L.A. Graf stories which tend to have the same focus. I placed it after them because it was intended to be a fourth year story and the L.A.Graf stories are placed in the third year.

F. The first 4 Rihannsu novels are included because they were "tweaked" to be post-TMP in the Blodwing Chronicles Anthology. The Wounded Sky and Doctor's Orders are kept with them even though they haven't been tweaked from being 1st 5-year-mission stories. Inconsistencies just have to be overlooked to make it work.

G. Christopher prefers The Better Man has an earlier placement but also notes it was intended as 2 years after TMP. The year is not stated in the book so I left it where the Pocket Timeline placed it which is around 2 years after TMP.
The Better Man introduces the new Starfleet uniforms. Their color is never stated but the fact that they include a jacket is mentioned repeatedly. I prefer the TMP uniforms to be used as long as possible, so this is another reason to keep The Better Man where it is. Actually, if possible I would prefer this story to be one of the last to further extend the use of theTMP uniforms.

H. Pandora Principle should be 6 years after Spock's discovery of Saavik and subsequent leave. However, this places it in 2280, making the 5-year-mission 7 years long. This could be reconciled by disregarding the "6 years later" aspect or by placing the final missions in 2280 and assuming the 5-year-mission was extended.

I. I've excluded the Prometheus Design and Triangle because I don't care for the "shipper" aspects I've heard they include.


This timeline doesn't imply that these stories are all part of the same continuity or that they should be. This is just an attempt to create a reading order/ timeline representing the 2nd 5-year-mission with the least inconsistencies due to story placement.

Let me know what you guys think and if there are any additions or changes I could/should make.

Thanks
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Old August 20 2013, 12:31 AM   #20
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

Jsplinis wrote: View Post
G. Christopher prefers The Better Man has an earlier placement but also notes it was intended as 2 years after TMP. The year is not stated in the book so I left it where the Pocket Timeline placed it which is around 2 years after TMP.
Actually the year is established pretty unambiguously in TBM. The story explicitly states that McCoy was on Empyrea in 2254, and he's suspected of being the father of a young woman who's just turned 18. Those dates are mentioned specifically and repeatedly in the text. Allowing for 9 extra months, that pretty much pegs the book as falling in 2273. (There are some references to the visit being 20 years earlier, but those are alongside numerous references to it being 18 years, so I assume there's some rounding going on.)

And the bit about coming 2 years after TMP is really only mentioned in the historian's note; it has no relevance to the text proper. The author's intent is that the book takes place between 18 and 20 years after 2254, i.e. roughly 2273.


The Better Man introduces the new Starfleet uniforms. Their color is never stated but the fact that they include a jacket is mentioned repeatedly.
I only find two mentions of a uniform jacket in a Google Books search of the text. They're easy enough to ignore.

Heck, the TMP uniforms had so many variant styles that maybe there was a jacketed version we didn't see in the movie. We know they had those tan field jackets they used when they left the ship, at least.
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Old August 20 2013, 01:04 AM   #21
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

Christopher, I can't believe I missed the obvious date for The Better Man. After you commented on it the first time I searched it for mention of the year and I completely forgot about the age reference. Thanks for correcting me.

So for those still interested, The Better Man would be better placed between Ex Machina and The Darkness Drops Again. Christopher was right and I am humbly embarrassed.

Oh and disregard the Note for The Better Man following my timeline.
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Old August 22 2013, 05:48 PM   #22
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

I remember in The Wrath of Khan novelization it being stated that Kirk got kicked back upstairs to Admiral after the V'Ger mission. I've never bought that myself.
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Old August 22 2013, 06:53 PM   #23
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

Christopher wrote: View Post
Jsplinis wrote: View Post
G. Christopher prefers The Better Man has an earlier placement but also notes it was intended as 2 years after TMP. The year is not stated in the book so I left it where the Pocket Timeline placed it which is around 2 years after TMP.
Actually the year is established pretty unambiguously in TBM. The story explicitly states that McCoy was on Empyrea in 2254, and he's suspected of being the father of a young woman who's just turned 18. Those dates are mentioned specifically and repeatedly in the text. Allowing for 9 extra months, that pretty much pegs the book as falling in 2273. (There are some references to the visit being 20 years earlier, but those are alongside numerous references to it being 18 years, so I assume there's some rounding going on.)

And the bit about coming 2 years after TMP is really only mentioned in the historian's note; it has no relevance to the text proper. The author's intent is that the book takes place between 18 and 20 years after 2254, i.e. roughly 2273.
Actually, it seems like the author had two intents which are now contradictory, based on what's being described. (I have to go by this, since I haven't read The Better Man.)

On the one hand, the novel is supposed to be two years after TMP. On the other, it's supposed to be 18 years after 2255...which (at the time that book came out) would've been the same thing, based on official sources. The date for TMP has moved forward since then, but I would personally go with Jsplinis's instinct to maintain the novel's placement relative to TMP.

It's not as if many of those other novels don't also have calendar dates (stated or implied) that are now problematic, and I imagine that if TMP had already been thought of as taking place in 2273 at the time, McCoy's visit could've/would've been described as occurring two years later.
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Old August 22 2013, 09:01 PM   #24
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

That was my thinking as well. The book was based on a chronology that is no longer correct. A choice would have to be made as to which of the contradictory dates should take priority.
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Old August 22 2013, 09:23 PM   #25
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

TheAlmanac wrote: View Post
Actually, it seems like the author had two intents which are now contradictory, based on what's being described. (I have to go by this, since I haven't read The Better Man.)

On the one hand, the novel is supposed to be two years after TMP. On the other, it's supposed to be 18 years after 2255...which (at the time that book came out) would've been the same thing, based on official sources. The date for TMP has moved forward since then, but I would personally go with Jsplinis's instinct to maintain the novel's placement relative to TMP.
Yes, technically the book is positioned both 18 years after the flashbacks and 2 years after TMP, but the latter is far, far less important to the story and gets far fewer mentions in the text. It is not essential to the story that 24 months have elapsed since V'Ger or that they're wearing the TWOK uniforms. Those are both alluded to in passing, but they're incidental. But it is extremely important to the story, and mentioned quite a few times, that the central character who's suspected of being McCoy's daughter has just turned 18 years old, and it's made quite clear that he was on her mother's planet in 2254. (And McCoy's age in 2254 is given based on his birthdate as calculated from his canonical age stated in "Encounter at Farpoint.")

So it's a matter of priorities. The interval since the flashbacks is immensely more important to the story than the interval since TMP. The former is a critical plot point that comes up repeatedly, while the latter is an incidental bit of detail that gets a handful of passing allusions.
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Old September 3 2013, 06:09 AM   #26
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

Christopher wrote: View Post
BritishSeaPower wrote: View Post
I haven't read it yet, but doesn't the Marvel comic Star Trek: Untold Voyages make the case that the original Marvel run was part of a "new ongoing mission" between TMP and TWOK? I was told that aside from some wonkiness about setting up TWOK elements a few years earlier than it should, it seems to work fairly well as "bridging" the Second Five-Year Mission concept.
^Uhh, the original 1980 Marvel run was explicitly presented as a new ongoing mission after TMP. There was no need to retcon that later; it was overtly the case from the beginning. Just about every post-TMP novel or comic since then has been, has had to be, in a post-TMP ongoing mission, so it was hardly an innovation for Untold Voyages to follow that established precedent. And UV didn't reference the 1980 run in any way, as far as I recall. The '80 run wasn't that well-regarded, and I doubt Marvel was eager to remind people of it.
Actually, the first issue of Untold Voyages does feature some subtle references the early '80s Marvel run with the character-design of the Klingons aboard the K't'inga-class battlecruisers -- they're pretty much a spot-on recreation of their TMP "lobster" appearances (in the sense of looking very much like Cockrum's interpretation), as well as in smaller details like how the Klingon captain fires his disruptor, the disruptor's appearance, etc.

Not HUGE, obvious references, of course, but I remember being pretty thrilled to see all the love given to those Marvel-motifs in the '90s when Untold Voyages first came out.
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Old September 3 2013, 02:31 PM   #27
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

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Actually, the first issue of Untold Voyages does feature some subtle references the early '80s Marvel run with the character-design of the Klingons aboard the K't'inga-class battlecruisers -- they're pretty much a spot-on recreation of their TMP "lobster" appearances (in the sense of looking very much like Cockrum's interpretation), as well as in smaller details like how the Klingon captain fires his disruptor, the disruptor's appearance, etc.
I'm sorry, I don't see that at all. Michael Collins and Keith Williams's Klingons don't look any more like Cockrum and Janson's than one would expect from two different art teams interpreting the same makeup design from the movie. The UV version is far more detailed and has elements from later Klingon designs influencing it (like longer hair on several of the Klingons, and more pronounced supraorbital ridges).

And I don't know what you mean about the disruptor's appearance. The disruptors in the 1980 issue are based on the Klingon disruptors seen in TOS (seen most clearly on #5, p. 26, panel 2, when Spock nerve-pinches a Klingon and takes the weapon), while the ones in UV #1 are different in shape and color (the only good look we get is on panel 3 of the third-to-last page -- the weapon has a thicker, more complex barrel and is purple instead of pinkish-gray).
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Old September 4 2013, 07:37 PM   #28
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

A very nice thread. I'm going to dive into this era shortly and it's good to know where the various novels fit in. I already have a few of them now.

I'm going to get The Lost Years series leading into TMP and go from there.
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Old September 4 2013, 08:57 PM   #29
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

^Well, keep in mind that the books don't represent a single continuity. Things like The Lost Years and the Duane novels are part of the '80s novel continuity, and aren't consistent with the modern shows or post-2000 books like Ex Machina.
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Old September 4 2013, 11:57 PM   #30
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Well, keep in mind that the books don't represent a single continuity. Things like The Lost Years and the Duane novels are part of the '80s novel continuity, and aren't consistent with the modern shows or post-2000 books like Ex Machina.
Thanks, for that info. I will probably skip them then. I read them all years ago but no longer had the books. Your "Ex Machina" is already on my to buy list.

Off Topic, but I just finished "Over a Torrent Sea" the other day and absolutely loved it. Kudos. Do you plan any future Titan novels? I sincerely hope so.
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