RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,365
Posts: 5,503,627
Members: 25,124
Currently online: 618
Newest member: traedoril

TrekToday headlines

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

Rumor Mill: Saldana Gives Birth
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

New Line of Anovos Enterprise Uniforms
By: T'Bonz on Dec 11


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 17 2013, 11:11 PM   #16
Rķu rķu, chķu
Fleet Admiral
 
Rķu rķu, chķu's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View Rķu rķu, chķu's Twitter Profile
Re: Who raised James Kirk in the primary reality?

^ Kodos was the man's real identity. He was Governor of the colony even before the massacre took place.

It was "Anton Karidian" which was the fake.
__________________
"A hot dog at the ballpark is better than a steak at the Ritz." - Humphrey Bogart
Rķu rķu, chķu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2013, 02:34 AM   #17
Santa Kang
Fleet Admiral
 
Santa Kang's Avatar
 
Location: North Pole,Qo'noS
Re: Who raised James Kirk in the primary reality?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Kodos was the man's real identity. He was Governor of the colony even before the massacre took place.

It was "Anton Karidian" which was the fake.
Explain that to Timo. I'm well aware.
__________________
Nerys Myk
Santa Kang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2013, 11:09 AM   #18
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Who raised James Kirk in the primary reality?

Since the plot is utterly nonsensical as such, any interpretation deviating from it must be preferred.

No, the dialogue does not establish Kodos as the governor of the outfit before the coup. And we have every excuse to assume that "Kodos" isn't a real name, but rather a nom de guerre for somebody obsessed with power and law.

The thing is that Kodos was known to 8,000 people at the time of the massacre, and to the entire universe afterwards: there'd be no point in having "witnesses capable of identifying him", either from the point of the law (physical evidence, recordings and the like would suffice) or from the point of Lenore Karidian (eliminating the nine would accomplish nothing). However, people would presumably arrive at the colony in smaller groups; if "Kodos" is a recent arrival, then there could well be just nine witnesses to who he "really" is.

The plot is full of other illogic as well, further affecting the interpretation of Kodos. The writer suggests ambiguity in whether the Executioner's ruthless decision was a rational one - but doesn't realize that it never could be. Killing half the people to allow the other half to survive is not viable in the scenario outlined: if there are going to be scheduled supplies, remaining food can be stretched essentially indefinitely, and if there are not, everybody will die anyway. So we must argue that Kodos took power solely in order to be able to kill 4,000 people. This is not something a madman like that would spend years quietly waiting for, in the position of Governor...

A man who comes, kills, and goes would thematically fit James T. Kirk also being the sort of boy who travels a lot. The other option, of him being one of the actual colonists, is the one where we run into problems regarding his parents or custodians. Although of course that's also a path worth exploring.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2013, 04:05 PM   #19
Rķu rķu, chķu
Fleet Admiral
 
Rķu rķu, chķu's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View Rķu rķu, chķu's Twitter Profile
Re: Who raised James Kirk in the primary reality?

^ Kodos was referred to in dialogue as Governor. That's all the proof I need that 1) he really was a Governor, and 2) Kodos was his real name.

As for any perceived ridiculousness in the plot: Blame Kodos. He may have been the Governor, but he was also obviously batshit insane.
__________________
"A hot dog at the ballpark is better than a steak at the Ritz." - Humphrey Bogart
Rķu rķu, chķu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2013, 06:38 PM   #20
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Who raised James Kirk in the primary reality?

We shouldn't want Kirk to be batshit insane as well, though. And that's what we get if we pursue the idea that he believed himself to be an important eyewitness to who Kodos was.

^ Kodos was referred to in dialogue as Governor. That's all the proof I need that 1) he really was a Governor, and 2) Kodos was his real name.
Why should that follow? Obviously, he would be both "Governor" and "Kodos" at the time he committed his atrocities, but that's all we can learn from this.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19 2013, 12:46 AM   #21
Santa Kang
Fleet Admiral
 
Santa Kang's Avatar
 
Location: North Pole,Qo'noS
Re: Who raised James Kirk in the primary reality?

The dialog infers he was Governor before the famine. The famine is why and how he seized total power and declared martial law

COMPUTER: Working. Kodos the Executioner, summary. Governor of Tarsus Four twenty Earth years ago. Invoked martial law
.

SPOCK: I will continue, Doctor. According to our library banks, it started on the Earth colony of Tarsus Four, when the food supply was attacked by an exotic fungus and largely destroyed. There were over eight thousand colonists and virtually no food. And that was when Governor Kodos seized full power and declared emergency martial law.
It's unlikely the the computer and Spock would refer to him as Governor if he was some guy off a transport who declared himself Dictator. It has to be a position given him by Earth, the Federation or the Colonists.
__________________
Nerys Myk
Santa Kang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19 2013, 11:47 AM   #22
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Who raised James Kirk in the primary reality?

And if it's the latter, there's no reason why it couldn't be the outcome of a successful coup.

Remember that the colonists were docile as sheep, or else it wouldn't have been possible to slaughter half of them. It's not even a case of Kodos hiring ruthless gunmen to mow down a mob: supposedly, the deaths were "without pain", as if he had the authority to tell people to take their suicide pills. Now, that works both with a religiously worshipped longterm leader and a recently arrived messiah.

Having "Kodos" arrive rather than preexist serves two purposes: there are fewer people who "really" know him, and there's the chance that Kirk arrived with him, hence didn't dwell on the planet long without his parents (of whom only mom could have been with him there without becoming a witness, presumably - that is, she could have become a victim instead).

Having Kodos preexist blocks most paths for rationalizing the eyewitness business, is all.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19 2013, 08:58 PM   #23
Praetor
Vice Admiral
 
Praetor's Avatar
 
Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: Who raised James Kirk in the primary reality?

Maybe Kirk and Leighton were on the worst extended field trip ever?

The Star Trek: Federation book speculates that the colony was running out of food, and Kodos presumed there was no ship that could reach the colony in time to provide needed food, hence the executions as part of a lottery-induced rationing. Kodos failed to take into account the higher speed of the new Constitution class ships, and the U.S.S. Enterprise under April arrived in time that the executions were beyond unnecessary.

One would think that the married Kirks both being assigned to the Kelvin was an oddity, and more often than not two Starfleet officers in the service together wouldn't be able to be together - similar to Geordi's parents in TNG. Maybe in the Prime Universe Winona Kirk retired from Starfleet after the Kelvin expedition?
__________________
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q
Praetor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19 2013, 09:28 PM   #24
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Who raised James Kirk in the primary reality?

Maybe Kirk and Leighton were on the worst extended field trip ever?
This is basically what Diane Carey alludes to in the novel Best Destiny when young rebel Jim Kirk sulks at his dad and unca April taking him to another field outing...

The Star Trek: Federation book speculates that the colony was running out of food, and Kodos presumed there was no ship that could reach the colony in time to provide needed food, hence the executions as part of a lottery-induced rationing.
This smells to high heaven, though. If the planet was habitable, then 8,000 people could sustain themselves indefinitely even if the crops utterly failed (speculation) and all stored food was rendered inedible (episode dialogue). If the planet was uninhabitable outside some domes, then rapid resupply would have to have been built into the colony concept, and cutting of rations would always be enough for waiting out the supply runs.

It takes some ingenuity to turn crop failure or stores poisoning into an actual calamity, and near-hypnotic powers to convince the colonists that mass murder is a viable solution; in the end, it seems almost inevitable that this Kodos character must have engineered the whole crisis from the very start, in order to satisfy his murderous lust. Perhaps Kodos poisoned the supplies? Or perhaps he took advantage of "natural" damage to supplies and exacerbated the situation by falsifying lab results and declaring all food unusable?

One would think that the married Kirks both being assigned to the Kelvin was an oddity, and more often than not two Starfleet officers in the service together wouldn't be able to be together - similar to Geordi's parents in TNG.
Yes, there's the odd dialogue in "Balance of Terror" where the Martine/Tomlinson wedding somehow will alter the fact that Tomlinson is Martine's superior officer. Will one or the other have to take a transfer? Will one or the other lose rank? Or is Tomlinson just kidding?

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 20 2013, 02:37 AM   #25
Rķu rķu, chķu
Fleet Admiral
 
Rķu rķu, chķu's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View Rķu rķu, chķu's Twitter Profile
Re: Who raised James Kirk in the primary reality?

Timo wrote: View Post
Yes, there's the odd dialogue in "Balance of Terror" where the Martine/Tomlinson wedding somehow will alter the fact that Tomlinson is Martine's superior officer. Will one or the other have to take a transfer?
Probably.

Tomlinson is not the captain, after all; he doesn't have the latitude to have his wife serve under his command, like Riker and Troi would later do on the Titan.

I think that in Tomlinson and Martine's case there would be a fair whack of grumbling from the rest of his phaser control team that he was somehow favoring her. Riker wouldn't have that problem, because he's the captain, and he can have whoever he wants on his bridge.
__________________
"A hot dog at the ballpark is better than a steak at the Ritz." - Humphrey Bogart
Rķu rķu, chķu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:58 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.