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Old August 19 2013, 02:05 PM   #76
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I don't see why the Bozeman was supposedly older than Reliant. But I think I understand what you're trying to imply from a TNG point of view, considering the Miranda Class (older) is still around while the Soyuz Class (later) is not.
Besides the decommissioning date, the Bozeman also sported a bridge module based on the Phase II Enterprise refit.
I had forgotten about this little but possibly crucial detail that could hint a solution for a credible rationalization.

The one thing we never learned about Reliant was whether she had been a refitted TOS-style Miranda Class or a totally new design utilizing the brand-new components of the Enterprise's refit.

I stated that I believe the "NCC-1831" on the starship status chart from "Court Martial" to be an early, possibly unintended, hint that Miranda Class ships (18th Federation starship design) already existed during the TOS era.

The 19th design (Soyuz Class) could have already been the first one combining TOS (or "Phase II post-TOS designs) and TMP Enterprise elements.
In simpler language, ships like the Bozeman could have been the first to go with the new upgrade elements (but still in the need for further refinement).

Ships like the Enterprise and the Reliant benefitted from refined upgrade packages (or a more substantial upgrade than the Soyuz Class), but eventually only the Miranda Class turned out to still have a bright future ahead, because it was a more versatile and multi-purpose design (than the Enterprise) and its upgrades had been more substantial or better (than the Soyuz Class).

Bob
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Old August 19 2013, 05:08 PM   #77
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

I seem to remember Mr. Probert's comments about treating the wall display as the "real" Enterprise-C. I seem to also recall him suggesting that his design might have been the appearance of the original U.S.S. Ambassador.

Why are we talking about the Ambassador anyway?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Ships like the Enterprise and the Reliant benefitted from refined upgrade packages (or a more substantial upgrade than the Soyuz Class), but eventually only the Miranda Class turned out to still have a bright future ahead, because it was a more versatile and multi-purpose design (than the Enterprise) and its upgrades had been more substantial or better (than the Soyuz Class).
I'll buy that - and maybe it was those very interim features that doomed the Soyuz class so early? Or, maybe the Soyuz class was an offshoot of the "original" design, meant for a special, urgent purpose, who was even more easily done in by her interim features?

I might agree with Timo that the Oberth as presented in TSFS and beyond could represent a technological level around the movie era or before, so perhaps it's a midstep along the lines you suggest the Soyuz to be.

OTOH, we should consider refits in general. Something about the Enterprise refit was special, I think. Others have suggested that it was perhaps a testbed for a whole new class; i.e., older ships with "prefit" (TOS) tech were not upgraded, but rather replaced with new models.

I'm not sure whether I subscribe to this theory yet, but it is worthy of note that the Excelsior and Miranda's appearances did not change appreciably in the same way the Enterprise changed from prefit to refit, nor have we seen any real similar degree of change in any other starship model. Now, it's possible that indeed there were other refits of Enterprise scale that went unseen, but why nothing for the Excelsior and Miranda onward? Is it them that's special, or the refit of the Enterprise?

My tangential point here is, we have no explicit reason, based on what's onscreen, to assume that the Oberth was ever refit into its known configuration. Based on this, we are left essentially with a debate over its age. This leaves us examining her features and registry, and also the longevity of the design.

Relatedly, I think we must consider our position on production intent in canon. It was the intent that the model in Sisko'sready room represented the Daedalus class. While indeed it has not been established onscreen ("first tier" canon or whatever you want to call it) it was indeed author intent. It was indeed on screen - which to me makes it Second Tier and acceptable until something First Tier invalidates it... and somehow, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.

(That said, any ship other than Essex need not be Daedalus class, of course.)

Why are we talking about the Daedalus anyway?
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Old August 19 2013, 07:37 PM   #78
Dukhat
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Apparently you're referring to the Ships of the Line article and the comments section. Unfortunately Drex Files has ceased to exist (), but I also posted a couple of comments there until the very end and read Andrew Probert's replies. But I don't recall one that suggests what you stated here. It seems to be somewhat out of context, and before we have some new myth-building at the expense of Andrew Probert I couldn't help but to intervene.
I'm not taking anything out of context. I was telling you what I remember reading, and I stand by what I wrote. It could have been on Drexfiles, it could have been on Trekmovie, I don't remember. But what I do remember was what Probert stated. Whether you believe me or not doesn't really concern me.

Praetor wrote: View Post
Why are we talking about the Ambassador anyway?
I believe Mr. Comsol brought it up.

Relatedly, I think we must consider our position on production intent in canon. It was the intent that the model in Sisko'sready room represented the Daedalus class. While indeed it has not been established onscreen ("first tier" canon or whatever you want to call it) it was indeed author intent. It was indeed on screen - which to me makes it Second Tier and acceptable until something First Tier invalidates it... and somehow, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.
I understand the intent, and I won't argue about that, as that's absolutely what the producers intended. But right along with that Daedalus model in Sisko's ready room was another model of the Nebula class Melbourne. The intent at the time of that model's creation was that the Melbourne was Nebula class, but the later reality turned out different. All I'm saying is that things like desktop models and display screen information should be taken with a grain of salt as far as true "canonicity" is concerned.

Why are we talking about the Daedalus anyway?
I believe Mr. Comsol brought it up.
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Old August 19 2013, 07:51 PM   #79
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
Relatedly, I think we must consider our position on production intent in canon. It was the intent that the model in Sisko'sready room represented the Daedalus class. While indeed it has not been established onscreen ("first tier" canon or whatever you want to call it) it was indeed author intent. It was indeed on screen - which to me makes it Second Tier and acceptable until something First Tier invalidates it... and somehow, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.
I understand the intent, and I won't argue about that, as that's absolutely what the producers intended. But right along with that Daedalus model in Sisko's ready room was another model of the Nebula class Melbourne. The intent at the time of that model's creation was that the Melbourne was Nebula class, but the later reality turned out different. All I'm saying is that things like desktop models and display screen information should be taken with a grain of salt as far as true "canonicity" is concerned.
I do agree with you there - but OTOH, there's no reason to not take it and run with it a bit, if only because there's nothing that directly contradicts the Daedalus as with the Melbourne. Now, I'm not about to dig through the pile of rejected Jefferies sketches and identify every ship type ever mentioned, but if it's been on screen and hasn't been contradicted, I don't see any harm.

The problem with the Oberth is not that it is already a can of worms - but the other cans it opens. Look at all the different topics that have sprung from it, ranging from starship longevity to the nature of Starfleet registries. The problem is, no one issue related to the Oberth we've identified is enough to really cement it one way or the other, sadly.

Speaking of which, does anyone recall how the TSFS script describes the old girl? I found this.

2. SPACE - USS GRISSOM - (ILM SHOT)
A mid-sized Federation Science Vessel approaching at impulse power. She PASSES CAMERA, and we PAN WITH her to see her path leads to the Genesis Planet in the distance.
Mid-sized Federation Science Vessel. If you really want to pick a nit, it doesn't even call her a Starfleet ship.

And, 120 meters would be midsize between the Enterprise and nothin.' Interestingly, it seems to assert there are ships smaller than her and also seems to define her specific role.
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Old August 19 2013, 09:24 PM   #80
Dukhat
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Praetor wrote: View Post
Mid-sized Federation Science Vessel. If you really want to pick a nit, it doesn't even call her a Starfleet ship.
The ship was crewed by Starfleet officers, so it makes the Grissom a de facto Starfleet vessel.

And, BTW, to show the actual seriousness with which ILM views all this stuff, read this quote from an ILM model maker from ST IV:

"We had an incident in the beginning of the film, where we needed a Reliant-class [sic.], so we put a new paint job on the old Reliant model, changed a small shuttle called the Grissom to the Copernicus and we added a back half to the shuttlecraft that Scotty flew around in Star Trek The Motion Picture."
So a member of ILM's model building staff in charge of renaming and re-regging the models thinks that the Grissom was a small shuttlecraft.
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Old August 19 2013, 10:00 PM   #81
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Dukhat wrote: View Post
I'm not taking anything out of context. I was telling you what I remember reading, and I stand by what I wrote. It could have been on Drexfiles, it could have been on Trekmovie, I don't remember. But what I do remember was what Probert stated.
Yes, that's what you wrote after you had posted this...

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Probert himself went on record that Sternbach's design is the true Ambassador class.
...which made it sound like an established fact, which it obviously is not, because all you can offer to back your claim up with is your memory.

What we see on the conference lounge's wall is the Enterprise-C as Andrew Probert envisioned it (as a member of the Ambassador Class) and all the work he put into it after all these years, working together with Tobias Richter to give birth to a pefect CGI visualization of his design in 2011, tells me that he has not given up on his vision and most assuredly does not consider his design "untrue".

Praetor wrote: View Post
Why are we talking about the Daedalus anyway? - Why are we talking about the Ambassador anyway?
Regarding the Grissom's possible saucer module landing capability I elaborated on that capability of the Daedalus Class in a pre-TOS context, Dukhat found fault with this insisting the depiction of the Daedalus Class was conjectural. It seemed necessary to to discuss the canon value of desktop models and wall sculptues depicted in the series...oh well, one thing let to another.

But since you brought this up:
  • why are we not talking about the windows or portholes of the USS Grissom? You wanted to elaborate on this but just provided a cross section which doesn't tell too us too much about possible deck heights and whether the portholes are overhead, at 6' height or cabin (sitting) level?
  • why we are not talking about what other functions (exhaust nozzle?) the tail of the Grissom's engineering pod could be good for?
Bob
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Old August 19 2013, 10:09 PM   #82
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
Mid-sized Federation Science Vessel. If you really want to pick a nit, it doesn't even call her a Starfleet ship.
The ship was crewed by Starfleet officers, so it makes the Grissom a de facto Starfleet vessel.
I'd say "USS" would identify the vessel as one belonging to Starfleet, not the crew. Genesis had become a delicate matter and I think Starfleet wanted to keep a watchful eye on these enthusiastic scientists, therefore and for this particular mission they assigned Captain Esteban to be in charge of the operation.

Especially since under normal operations I could imagine a commander to be the captain of such a small vessel, but not a veteran Starfleet captain like Esteban.

Bob
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Old August 19 2013, 10:15 PM   #83
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
Why are we talking about the Daedalus anyway? - Why are we talking about the Ambassador anyway?
Regarding the Grissom's possible saucer module landing capability I elaborated on that capability of the Daedalus Class in a pre-TOS context, Dukhat found fault with this insisting the depiction of the Daedalus Class was conjectural. It seemed necessary to to discuss the canon value of desktop models and wall sculptues depicted in the series...oh well, one thing let to another.
Ah, yes. Derp. I was mostly teasing, no ill-will meant. I honestly had lost track why we were discussing it.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
But since you brought this up:
  • why are we not talking about the windows or portholes of the USS Grissom? You wanted to elaborate on this but just provided a cross section which doesn't tell too us too much about possible deck heights and whether the portholes are overhead, at 6' height or cabin (sitting) level?
  • why we are not talking about what other functions (exhaust nozzle?) the tail of the Grissom's engineering pod could be good for?
Ouch.

Okay okay, I'm slack. I'll see what I can work up this evening regarding the windows. As for the nozzle... erm... auxiliary impulse engine?

Can we all at least agree now that she's a mid-size Federation (Starfleet) science vessel?
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Old August 19 2013, 11:33 PM   #84
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Praetor wrote: View Post
As for the nozzle... erm... auxiliary impulse engine?
I don't have a good stern picture at hand, but in comparison wouldn't the tiny impulse "thingy" at the warp sled's stern rather look "auxiliary"?

Praetor wrote: View Post
Can we all at least agree now that she's a mid-size Federation (Starfleet) science vessel?
If a mid-size Federation vessel "could be" a "Scout Class vessel" I probably wouldn't say no. Do we have anything useful on the USS Jenolan (Sydney Class) for comparison?

Bob
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Old August 20 2013, 01:22 AM   #85
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Before I proceed, I must tuck tail and correct a horrible omission that I hope can be forgiven. In retelling the tale of the creation of the Oberth schematic for LCARS24, I completely neglecting to mention the the critical input of our own Reverend, whose efforts to create accurate schematics of the Oberth class I considered definitive, and strongly influenced the take on the ship I presented before.

Whatever the Romulan is for "oops," there you have it. I have put in a PM to Reverend in the hopes he drops by.

With that out of the way, with all deliberate slaphazardness, I present this crude deck to window analysis:



It is hampered by the perspective of the image, but basically the windows are more or less too high for each deck as they align to the edges of the hull. And the ones on top of the dome, which can be viewed quite wel in the following image, could be skylights I suppose, but are probably better described as some form of sensors.



Given the nature of my Excelsior thread, though, it might be worthwhile to attempt scaling the ship based on the windows for kicks. However, I think the results would be frustrating at best.

Should we also consider the wrecked Vico while we're at it? We know it to be a separate model, but perhaps there is some merit.



Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I don't have a good stern picture at hand, but in comparison wouldn't the tiny impulse "thingy" at the warp sled's stern rather look "auxiliary"?
The Fact Files image might suffice:



My issue with making it a primary impulse engine would be that it would seem to not be along the center of mass... but maybe two impulse engines working in tandem would be okay?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
If
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
a mid-size Federation vessel "could be" a "Scout Class vessel" I probably wouldn't say no. Do we have anything useful on the USS Jenolan (Sydney Class) for comparison?
Mm, I'm not sure if the Jenolan helps:


I'd say that bridge module suggests a ship closer to 200 meters, give or take. Plus, she was a transport, so she doesn't necessarily have to be small.
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Old August 20 2013, 02:49 AM   #86
Dukhat
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post
I'm not taking anything out of context. I was telling you what I remember reading, and I stand by what I wrote. It could have been on Drexfiles, it could have been on Trekmovie, I don't remember. But what I do remember was what Probert stated.
Yes, that's what you wrote after you had posted this...

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Probert himself went on record that Sternbach's design is the true Ambassador class.
...which made it sound like an established fact, which it obviously is not, because all you can offer to back your claim up with is your memory.
I'm not trying to belabor this, because it really isn't all that important, but it seems that you simply can't get it through your head that Sternbach's design is the official Ambassador class because it was seen on screen and Probert's wasn't, no matter what you think that Probert thinks. You seem to be speaking for Mr. Probert, which is quite a disservice to him, IMHO. As I said before, I could back my claim up if I had access to his quote, but I don't. Which is why I don't particularly care if you believe me or not, because I know what I read, which was that Mr. Probert stated that Rick's design is the true Ambassador class. And he's correct.

What we see on the conference lounge's wall is the Enterprise-C as Andrew Probert envisioned it (as a member of the Ambassador Class) and all the work he put into it after all these years, working together with Tobias Richter to give birth to a pefect CGI visualization of his design in 2011, tells me that he has not given up on his vision and most assuredly does not consider his design "untrue".
And yet the design as such only exists in true canon as an ill-formed side-view wall hanging, right alongside an ill-formed wall hanging of the Enterprise-B, which looks different than the actual Enterprise-B vessel. Actually all of those wall hanging sculptures are dubious at best in showing the true vessels they represent. You can think the design is "true" all you want, but unless that ship that Probert painted and Tobias Richter meshed was actually seen in the show, it has no canon standing and is really no different than a fan-made design. And I'd bet that Mr. Probert knows this as well.

Now with that said, I will repeat that I really do like Probert's original Ambassador design. As a matter of fact, I like all of Probert's work in regards to Star Trek. Two of my favorite Trek ships of all time, the TMP Enterprise and the Enterprise-D, were designed by him. I can totally see his love and dedication to his work in every sketch he drew.
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Old August 20 2013, 03:17 AM   #87
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
As for the nozzle... erm... auxiliary impulse engine?
I don't have a good stern picture at hand, but in comparison wouldn't the tiny impulse "thingy" at the warp sled's stern rather look "auxiliary"?

Praetor wrote: View Post
Can we all at least agree now that she's a mid-size Federation (Starfleet) science vessel?
If a mid-size Federation vessel "could be" a "Scout Class vessel" I probably wouldn't say no. Do we have anything useful on the USS Jenolan (Sydney Class) for comparison?

Bob
There is the USS. Antares NCC-501. It is a science vessel and it's smaller then a Oberth class is.
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Old August 20 2013, 11:58 AM   #88
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Praetor wrote: View Post
Before I proceed, I must tuck tail and correct a horrible omission that I hope can be forgiven. In retelling the tale of the creation of the Oberth schematic for LCARS24, I completely neglecting to mention the the critical input of our own Reverend, whose efforts to create accurate schematics of the Oberth class I considered definitive, and strongly influenced the take on the ship I presented before.

Whatever the Romulan is for "oops," there you have it. I have put in a PM to Reverend in the hopes he drops by.
Not sure what else I can add to the discussion beyond posting a link to the old schematic thread. Suffice to say I've always worked from the presumption that the Oberth was a late 22nd century design (hence the log reg) and was heavily influenced by Vulcan design aesthetics (hence the unique look.) I don't tink I ever totally settled on a size for the thing, but I'm pretty sure it was in the 180/200m ballpark. IIRC I came the the opinion that the model makers intended it to be a lot bigger (by a factor of at least 2) than what the official length ended up being.

As for the schematics themselves, a quick rummage through my photobucket account yields these, which are about as far as I got before something shinny distracted me.



And just for fun!

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Old August 20 2013, 12:16 PM   #89
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

My issue with making it a primary impulse engine would be that it would seem to not be along the center of mass...
Well, impulse engines never are. Unless one fine-tunes the mass of the nacelles, the one element that can be assumed to noticeably differ in density from the rest of the ship. But even that only saves one ship class at a time; what works for the Constitution refit won't work for the Miranda.

So far, we've seen that the glowing bits of impulse engines can be of any size, point in any direction, or even be completely absent (TOS!), so we can probably dismiss their role as a rocket engine of some conventional sort. Perhaps their glow is harnessed for boosting propulsion by 0.7% in some designs, while in others the as such meaningless boost is not incorporated (the way some aircraft piston engines derive extra boost from venting their exhausts while most don't).

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Old August 20 2013, 12:34 PM   #90
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

^IIRC Sternbach always said that the red glowey bit isn't a reaction thruster like a rocket so much as an engine/reactor exhaust vent like the one on your car. As such it's placement has very little to do with centers of mass or thrust and more to do with convenient disposal of ionized gas.

The idea that impulse engines used reaction thrust never made much sense to me anyway. I mean I'm no rocket scientist, but I imagine the sheer mass required to accelerate a ship up to .5C in anything less than a few months would be ridiculously impractical. It make much more sense (if one can apply sense to fictional laws of physics!) for them to operate like low powered warp engines. Compressing and expanded space while working with the IDF to create a sort of caterpillar effect.
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