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Old August 18 2013, 08:56 PM   #1
Jsplinis
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Post TMP 5 Year Mission

I hope to start my TOS 2nd Five Year Mission marathon soon, but I have some continuity questions.

The VOTI timeline lists the novels in the following order:

Night Whispers
TMP
Ex Machina
Kobayashi Maru
Home is the Hunter
Enemy Unseen
Firestorm
Mere Anarchy: The Darkness Drops Again
Ice Trap
Shell Game
Death Count
The Wounded Sky
Rihannsu: My Enemy, My Ally
Doctor's Orders
Spock's World
The Better Man
Covenant of the Crown
Time trap
Rihannsu: The Romulans Way
Rihannsu: Sword Hunt
Rihannsu: Honor Blade
Rihannsu: The Empty Chair
Rules of Engagement
Deep Domain

If I were to use this as my reading order/ timeline, then I have a few questions.

1. Where would Forgotten History best fit?

2. Why are the L.A. Graf novels like Firestorm and Ice Trap placed so early. I read that they feature the "red jacket" uniforms so shouldn't they be after The Better Man where these uniforms are introduced. Or is there other timeframe details that force the earlier placement?

3. Other than the three novels listed above and Deep Domain. Do any other stories in the list feature the "red jacket" uniforms?

4. I recently flipped through Pandora's Principle and noticed Kirk was called Captain. Shouldn't he be an Admiral if this story happens after Deep Domain during his Academy Instructor days?

5. Am I correct in understanding that New Earth's time placement of being shortly after TMP is only mentioned in the notes and cover blurbs? I read somewhere that it features Kirk as an Instructor at the Academy and Spock as a Captain which would place it after Deep Domain. But contrary to this placement, Chekov hasn't begun his transfer yet and the "red jacket" uniforms are introduced as new for the second time. Are there any other timing issues?

I know not all novels are meant to coexist. I'm just hoping to read the novels in an order that will have the least inconsistencies. Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks.
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Old August 18 2013, 08:59 PM   #2
JWolf
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

There never was a 2nd 5yr mission. It was just assumed there was and wrongly so.
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Old August 18 2013, 09:05 PM   #3
F. King Daniel
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

JWolf wrote: View Post
There never was a 2nd 5yr mission. It was just assumed there was and wrongly so.
In some novels, like Spock's World, they're explicitly at the midpoint of the second 5-year mission, post-TMP.

Perhaps you're thinking of the pre-TMP second 5YM which The Wounded Sky and others were originally written to be a part of?
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Old August 18 2013, 09:08 PM   #4
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

Nope. I'm thinking of the 2nd 5yr mission that never was a 5yr mission. Any book that mentions a 2nd 5yr mission has it wrong.
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Old August 18 2013, 10:16 PM   #5
Christopher
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

Jsplinis wrote: View Post
1. Where would Forgotten History best fit?
Well, first off, I personally put The Darkness Drops Again before The Kobayashi Maru. Forgotten History would probably go between that and the L.A. Graf books.


2. Why are the L.A. Graf novels like Firestorm and Ice Trap placed so early. I read that they feature the "red jacket" uniforms so shouldn't they be after The Better Man where these uniforms are introduced. Or is there other timeframe details that force the earlier placement?
Firestorm is supposed to be five years after "Elaan of Troyius." Ice Trap is eight years after Chekov joins the crew, which should make it 2275 by my reckoning, but for some reason the Pocket Timeline puts it in '74. (Even given that he was aboard as of "Space Seed," that was late enough in the season that it should be 2267.)

Also, I don't know why they put The Better Man so late, when it's explicitly in 2273. At the time it was written, the Okudachron put TMP in 2271 for unclear reasons, so Howie wrote the book with the assumption that it was two years after TMP, hence the "new uniforms" reference. But once VGR established that Kirk's 5-year mission had ended in 2270, that meant TMP had to be in 2272-3, and Pocket assumes '73. So that would put TBM much sooner after TMP. Personally I put it between Ex Machina and Darkness Drops, making it the second adventure post-TMP, and I take McCoy's reference to the "new uniforms" as being about the TMP uniforms which he's still getting used to (after all, they're never specifically described as red jackets).


3. Other than the three novels listed above and Deep Domain. Do any other stories in the list feature the "red jacket" uniforms?
Hard to say. I don't think a lot of them specify in the text, and you can't always trust what's on the covers.


4. I recently flipped through Pandora's Principle and noticed Kirk was called Captain. Shouldn't he be an Admiral if this story happens after Deep Domain during his Academy Instructor days?
They put it after DD? That doesn't make sense. The Pandora Principle should come late in the post-TMP 5-year mission, before Kirk's second promotion. A plot thread in that book is about Kirk being worried that he's going to be promoted to the admiralty again.


5. Am I correct in understanding that New Earth's time placement of being shortly after TMP is only mentioned in the notes and cover blurbs? I read somewhere that it features Kirk as an Instructor at the Academy and Spock as a Captain which would place it after Deep Domain. But contrary to this placement, Chekov hasn't begun his transfer yet and the "red jacket" uniforms are introduced as new for the second time. Are there any other timing issues?
There are a lot of issues with those books, but those are the main ones I'm aware of. Yeah, for some reason, most of the post-TMP books with historians' notes over the years have claimed they were "shortly" after TMP, even when there was no reason for that claim. But the Timeliners concluded that those books made more sense if they were after the second 5YM, and I agree with that conclusion.


JWolf wrote: View Post
Nope. I'm thinking of the 2nd 5yr mission that never was a 5yr mission. Any book that mentions a 2nd 5yr mission has it wrong.
No, King Daniel is right. You're mistakenly thinking of the hypothetical second 5-year mission taking place before TMP. We do know now that that didn't exist, because TMP took place in 2273, and thus there's no room for a second 5YM before it. But that's an entirely separate issue from the existence of a 5YM after TMP, the one spanning 2273-78. That's what we're discussing here, and its existence is an established part of the modern novel continuity.
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Old August 18 2013, 10:54 PM   #6
Jsplinis
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

Thanks Christopher. If I were to adjust the reading order for your comments, the reading order would look like this:

Night Whispers
TMP
Ex Machina
The Better Man
Mere Anarchy: The Darkness Drops Again
Kobayashi Maru
Home is the Hunter
Enemy Unseen
Forgotten History
Firestorm
Ice Trap
Shell Game
Death Count
The Wounded Sky
Rihannsu: My Enemy, My Ally
Doctor's Orders
Spock's World
Covenant of the Crown
Time trap
Rihannsu: The Romulans Way
Rihannsu: Sword Hunt
Rihannsu: Honor Blade
Rihannsu: The Empty Chair
Rules of Engagement
Deep Domain
New Earth

What do you think?

6. You said Forgotten History would be between Kobayashi Maru and the L.A.Graf stories. What does that mean for Home is the Hunter and Enemy Unseen? Should they stay in that gap and be before or after Forgotten History? Or should I move them elsewhere?

7. Also how do you feel about the placement of Covenant of the Crown and Timetrap?

8. And are Doctor's Orders and Spock's World ok relative to the other Diane Duane novels?

9. Do your TMP stories refer to your TOS short story As Others See Us?

I know I could figure this out for myself by reading the stories, but I would rather read them in a good order the first time if I can. Thanks for the help.
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Old August 18 2013, 11:05 PM   #7
Captain Nebula
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

JWolf wrote: View Post
Nope. I'm thinking of the 2nd 5yr mission that never was a 5yr mission. Any book that mentions a 2nd 5yr mission has it wrong.
Why couldn't there be another 5 year mission?

1.) It's fiction. It's ALL made up.
2.) There's supposed to be a 10 year gap between TMP and TWOK. Fill in the gap.
3.) Make it up. If you want to believe there was another 5 year mission, then by all means, believe there was another 5 year mission. Unless some other book contradicts that, who's to say you're wrong.
4.) Other than JWolf.
5.) 5 year missions rock!

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Old August 18 2013, 11:10 PM   #8
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

Christopher wrote: View Post
They put it after DD? That doesn't make sense. The Pandora Principle should come late in the post-TMP 5-year mission, before Kirk's second promotion. A plot thread in that book is about Kirk being worried that he's going to be promoted to the admiralty again.
I just finished Deep Domain and then The Pandora Principle, and I was offput by the seeming reverse order in the VotI timeline. It also appeared to me that TPP should take place before Deep Domain what with Kirk's subplot, Chekov's presence on the Enterprise, and Nogura still being in charge of the Enterprise as opposed to Admiral Morrow in Deep Domain.

The VotI reasoning as I see it is that The Pandora Principle takes place six years after Spock discovers Saavik and takes a year leave of absence to begin her education. I think this year is widely believed to have been around 2274/2275. So they concluded TPP takes place in 2281. This also gives Saavik 4 years at the Academy between her admission in TPP and her Kobayashi Maru in 2285 in STII.

I see two possibilities to solve this situation.
  1. Saavik was found by Spock around 2269/2270, and Spock took the year off during the end of the first five year mission. Then TPP takes place around 2275/2276, with Deep Domain still in 2278. Saavik rose to the rank of Lt. before graduation partly because she stayed in the Academy for about 8 years before graduation.
  2. The second five year mission is actually longer than 5 years. TPP does take place in 2281, but Deep Domain doesn't take place until later. Then there is still four years for Kirk to be an admiral, have occasional adventures on Spock's Enterprise, retire, and then come back before TWoK.
Christopher, does the dating of option two correspond to the details of your Mere Anarchy tale? I know it would be hard to reconcile Spock taking a year off during the original five year mission with the sheer number of tales already crammed into the final few years.

There may just be no really good way to reconcile the timing of The Pandora Principle.
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Old August 19 2013, 12:19 AM   #9
Christopher
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

Jsplinis wrote: View Post
6. You said Forgotten History would be between Kobayashi Maru and the L.A.Graf stories. What does that mean for Home is the Hunter and Enemy Unseen? Should they stay in that gap and be before or after Forgotten History? Or should I move them elsewhere?
I don't personally count those as part of the current novel timeline. HitH contradicts In the Name of Honor by killing off Garrovick, and EU... well, it has continuity issues. Mainly, the characters in the book acted like they'd never heard of a shapeshifter before, which clashes with "The Man Trap," "Catspaw," "Whom Gods Destroy," "The Survivor," etc.

Anyway, FH has three parts, one of which spans TOS and the interim period, one of which is in 2274 while Spock is on leave to mentor Saavik, and one of which is in 2275 after Spock's return.


7. Also how do you feel about the placement of Covenant of the Crown and Timetrap?
Covenant needs to be 18 years after Kirk was a lieutenant commander. Since he was a lieutenant when the Farragut was destroyed in 2257, I put its flashbacks in 2258 and the main body of the novel in 2276.

I don't count Timetrap in the modern continuity.


8. And are Doctor's Orders and Spock's World ok relative to the other Diane Duane novels?
Spock's World takes place between The Romulan Way and Swordhunt. Doctor's Orders doesn't make overt references to the rest of the Duane novels, so it's harder to place.


9. Do your TMP stories refer to your TOS short story As Others See Us?
As yet, I've had no opportunity to revisit any of that story's concepts in any later work. I assume that story takes place sometime between "Turnabout Intruder" and TAS.



Captain Nebula wrote: View Post
Why couldn't there be another 5 year mission?
There couldn't be a second 5YM before TMP, given what's now understood. It used to be uncertain how much time passed between TOS and TMP, and though TMP itself indicated pretty clearly that Kirk had spent only "five years out there," there were nonetheless some fans and writers who assumed the in-universe interval was close to the 10-year real-life interval, leaving room for a second 5YM before Kirk's promotion to admiral. Some old books were written with this assumption in mind, but it's no longer viable given modern chronological assumptions.

But like I said, that's a different topic from the idea of a 5-year mission after TMP. JWolf is simply confusing the two issues. There is no dispute (as far as I'm aware) that the Enterprise crew spent several years on a mission between TMP and TWOK, and quite a few works of fiction assume that mission was 5 years in duration; in particular, The Captain's Daughter has flashbacks to just after the end of that mission, explicitly referring to it as a 5-year mission. Although the Crucible trilogy (in a separate continuity from the rest of the novels) instead makes it a 7-year-long round-trip voyage to a distant part of space.


ryan123450 wrote: View Post
The VotI reasoning as I see it is that The Pandora Principle takes place six years after Spock discovers Saavik and takes a year leave of absence to begin her education. I think this year is widely believed to have been around 2274/2275. So they concluded TPP takes place in 2281. This also gives Saavik 4 years at the Academy between her admission in TPP and her Kobayashi Maru in 2285 in STII.

I see two possibilities to solve this situation.
  1. Saavik was found by Spock around 2269/2270, and Spock took the year off during the end of the first five year mission. Then TPP takes place around 2275/2276, with Deep Domain still in 2278. Saavik rose to the rank of Lt. before graduation partly because she stayed in the Academy for about 8 years before graduation.
  2. The second five year mission is actually longer than 5 years. TPP does take place in 2281, but Deep Domain doesn't take place until later. Then there is still four years for Kirk to be an admiral, have occasional adventures on Spock's Enterprise, retire, and then come back before TWoK.
Christopher, does the dating of option two correspond to the details of your Mere Anarchy tale? I know it would be hard to reconcile Spock taking a year off during the original five year mission with the sheer number of tales already crammed into the final few years.

There may just be no really good way to reconcile the timing of The Pandora Principle.
In fact, a number of the details of TPP have been superseded by other subsequent works, including Unspoken Truth, which borrows some elements from TPP but interprets other elements differently (including the portrayal of Hellguard and the idea that Saavik was raised by Sarek and Amanda after Spock's initial training). So in writing Forgotten History I followed what UT said rather than what TPP said.

In my version, after Darkness Drops part 1 comes The Kobayashi Maru, then after that comes the Hellguard rescue mission where Spock finds Saavik, followed by the appropriate flashback chapters in Unspoken Truth, during Spock's yearlong leave to train Saavik in civilized behavior (one of the ideas from TPP which UT does use). Forgotten History part 2 is a few months into Spock's leave, and part 3 is 9 months later, not long after his return. Obviously any other post-TMP books would have to come after that, since Spock is in them all.
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Old August 19 2013, 02:03 AM   #10
Captain Nebula
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

Christopher wrote: View Post
There couldn't be a second 5YM before TMP, given what's now understood.
Correct, the 'before TMP' timeframe was covered in The Lost Years novels.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star...The_Lost_Years
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Old August 19 2013, 02:42 AM   #11
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

^No, it has nothing to do with that. We already knew from TMP that there was a gap of two and a half years between the time Kirk was promoted to admiral and the time TMP occurred. What fandom disagreed upon was whether there was a second 5-year mission between TOS and Kirk's promotion. As I said, in the '80s the chronology of the 23rd century was vaguely enough defined that there was confusion about how much time passed between TOS and TMP. The prevailing view, supported by TMP's own dialogue, was always that there was a single 5-year mission, then 2.5 years of Kirk as an admiral, then TMP, then a second mission that was generally assumed to be 5 years. But there was a minority view that there were two 5-year missions before Kirk's promotion, and that view is at least implicitly reflected in several of the '80s novels, notably Diane Duane's books and Pawns and Symbols. Note that none of them ever actually came out and said "This is a second 5-year mission," but they had specific references to the stories taking place several years after TOS episodes (in particular, The Romulan Way was said to be 8 years after "The Enterprise Incident") even though the characters still had their TOS-era ranks, uniforms, and jobs. Thus we can extrapolate that the writers were assuming a second 5-year mission -- or at least were assuming that the in-story interval between TOS and TMP matched the real-world interval, rather than being years shorter as we now accept it to be.
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Old August 19 2013, 03:07 AM   #12
Captain Nebula
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

I see what you mean, but doesn't The Lost Years clear all of that up?

From Amazon.com for The Lost Years
From the Publisher
After the end of the Enterprise's five-year mission, Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, and Dr. McCoy struggle to establish new lives apart from each other and the starship. The newly-promoted Admiral Kirk is placed in charge of a specially-created Starfleet division and attempts to defuse a critical hostage situation; Mr. Spock, who, in the midst of a teaching assignment on Vulcan, finds the one thing he least expected; and Dr. McCoy, whose unerring instinct for trouble lands him smack in the middle of an incident that could trigger an interstellar bloodbath.
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Old August 19 2013, 03:16 AM   #13
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

It was already cleared up by the time those books were written.
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Old August 19 2013, 03:58 AM   #14
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

Remember, the continuity back then was pretty loose. Yes, a number of the books had interconnections or cross-references, and that was starting to get more systematic in the last couple of years before the Richard Arnold crackdown on continuity, but it was never as tightly unified as it is today, and a lot of the books that were nominally in continuity with each other nonetheless had differences in detail and interpretation.

And like I said, there was never any explicit statement that there was a second 5-year mission. That's largely my own extrapolation that I made in the "Continuity of Days Gone By" thread, based on a fan theory I remember hearing about, in order to explain the occasional strange timing reference in some of the novels, like The Romulan Way being 8 years after the third season yet somehow still pre-TMP. These are subtle timing discrepancies that readers -- and authors and editors -- back in the day could easily have overlooked.
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Old August 19 2013, 04:56 AM   #15
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Re: Post TMP 5 Year Mission

I haven't read it yet, but doesn't the Marvel comic Star Trek: Untold Voyages make the case that the original Marvel run was part of a "new ongoing mission" between TMP and TWOK? I was told that aside from some wonkiness about setting up TWOK elements a few years earlier than it should, it seems to work fairly well as "bridging" the Second Five-Year Mission concept.
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