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Old August 13 2013, 04:46 PM   #31
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?

Mytran wrote: View Post
TMOST mentions this I think - massive refrigeration facilities!
There is a passage suggesting they could grow food in the hydroponic gardens or something like this. But if they can refrigerate celery they could refrigerate other fruits and vegetables as well, which I really don't recall noticing.

Maybe it was or looked exotic back in the 1960's? I don't like celery except when it comes with a Bloody Mary.

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Was there ANY part of the set that wasn't redressed as something else as one point?
I haven't made a count but the transporter room was often redressed during the series, obviously to present the variety of the 4 personnel transporter rooms mentioned in The Making of Star Trek.

Bob
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Old August 13 2013, 05:00 PM   #32
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Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?

Have we (or anyone) ever taken the Enterprise writeup in TMoST and analyzed it in-depth? I think that would be fascinating. Taken as a whole, it might bring up some serious headscratchers.
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Old August 13 2013, 05:43 PM   #33
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Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?

I think you could be right - and although the series' bible describes the chapel as being a redress of the Transporter Room (perhaps because of the raised platform?) of course it never was.
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Old August 13 2013, 08:15 PM   #34
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?

Praetor wrote: View Post
Have we (or anyone) ever taken the Enterprise writeup in TMoST and analyzed it in-depth? I think that would be fascinating. Taken as a whole, it might bring up some serious headscratchers.
I'd think Franz Joseph's deck plans qualify as a faithful reproduction of the Enterprise description in TMoST and as this analysis, in a manner of speaking.

To me it looks like it's a description for the pilot version or even prior to this for a couple of reasons:
  • The whole saucer separation suggestion (on a regular basis!) looks almost like transporters hadn't been invented yet (what reasonable purpose could the separated saucer be useful for, other than landing on a planet?). "Smells" like Forbidden Planet...
  • There is no mentioning whatsoever of the Auxiliary Control Room or the Emergency Manual Monitor, apparently these locations hadn't been even thought of, yet
  • Sickbay is supposedly on Deck 7 but all the onscreen evidence (e.g. turbo lift rides to sickbay) indicate Deck 5 to be its actual and canonical location!
I think Stephen E. Whitfield added only a few updates during the time of "The Ultimate Computer", namely the duotronic systems and the conclusion that the senior officers' quarters are on Deck 5 - because M-5 hadn't switched off the lights on this deck.

Of course, Gene Roddenberry finally got "his" saucer separation in TNG, the "outdoor recreation area" in "Elaan of Troyius" / "And the Children..." and the holoroom in TAS. Looks like three items he persistently pursued from the very beginning.

The one that causes my deck plan project headaches is the location of the holoroom which according to TMoST should be on Deck 8.
However, one of the four top side skylights or "starlights" would make a better location considering the depiction in TAS as a rectangular and illuminated white room, IMHO.

Bob
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Old August 13 2013, 09:16 PM   #35
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?

Back to the original topic. Here is the Jefferies pre-production sketch for the Herbarium from "Is There in Truth No Beauty?"



You can clearly see in the middle the fake door "carniverous plants" as described in the early screenplay (thanks GSchnitzer) where Kirk had to keep Miranda from running in to.

While the left part is obviously the set of the Season Three Rec Room (I prefer to refer to as "Solarium") that was considered for shooting, Jefferies also wanted to add a bigger section towards the right which most likely didn't happen because of budget restrictions.

So finally Kirk and Miranda entered and left through the yellow double door "Corr." (otherwise used as the side door to the briefing room set and others) and the longer scene was probably deleted because there wasn't the other door Miranda could run to and endanger herself...

Bob

(cool, looks like I just got promoted to Fleet Captain)
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Old August 17 2013, 08:31 PM   #36
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Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?

Ah, looks like this thread just got interesting again.

It's worth pointing out in connection with the above, that in Jefferies other sketches the round room on the left is always labeled "recreation room" whereas the rectangular room on the right is always labeled "herbarium" so it's clear that he wanted them to be separate but connected facilities, just as they are described in TMoST.

Last edited by TIN_MAN; August 17 2013 at 08:58 PM.
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Old August 17 2013, 09:26 PM   #37
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Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?

^^ OTHER sketches / floor plans (than the one in my previous post) with annotations?!?!
I'd have to see these before I believe it.

TMoST doesn't mention the Herbarium, it just refers to a "large recreation area" with outdoor characteristics which "will be seen in the third season". And the Season Three "recreation room" apparently has these characteristics, doesn't it?

Unlike the new "recreation area" seen in CL and (deleted) ET, the TB Herbarium lacks the fountain-look-alike structure in the middle of the room.

Bob
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Old August 18 2013, 03:46 AM   #38
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Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
^^ OTHER sketches / floor plans (than the one in my previous post) with annotations?!?!
I'd have to see these before I believe it.
They can all be found at trekcore, the one I'm thinking of is the perspective or elevation view of the round rec room with the caption "recreation room".

TMoST doesn't mention the Herbarium; it just refers to a "large recreation area" with outdoor characteristics which "will be seen in the third season". And the Season Three "recreation room" apparently has these characteristics, doesn't it?
Yes, that was my point. Although I should have been more specific, in addition to the "large recreation area" which undoubtedly referred to the set under discussion, TMoST also mentions an "exotic entertainment center" and other things besides, which I take to be interconnected facilities, or at least side by side?

The Herbarium could certainly be among them since it seems to fall under the same general category.

Unlike the new "recreation area" seen in CL and (deleted) ET, the TB Herbarium lacks the fountain-look-alike structure in the middle of the room.
Yes, but the "Herbarium" in "TB" is just a redress of the round recreation room under discussion, and is not the set MJ originally intended as seen in the sketch above, albeit with the "planters" that were originally designed for the herbarium.

And yes, this "Herbarium" apparently had the round fountain/planter thingy removed, although it's hard to tell since the camera angles are so tight?

I suppose since the deleted scene in EoT includes a suggestion that there are two identical round rooms side by side, we could fudge and say one is the rec room and one is the herbarium, thereby salvaging at least the spirit of MJ's intent if not the literal execution?
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Old August 18 2013, 01:06 PM   #39
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?

TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
They can all be found at trekcore, the one I'm thinking of is the perspective or elevation view of the round rec room with the caption "recreation room".
I see. But that sketch only shows the "recreation room" with a water sprinkling fountain. You seemed to suggest there was a reference to the Herbarium.

In addition to the "large recreation area" which undoubtedly referred to the set under discussion, TMoST also mentions an "exotic entertainment center" and other things besides, which I take to be interconnected facilities, or at least side by side?
It is my understanding that "exotic entertainment center" referred to the holoroom, we finally saw in TAS.

And yes, this "Herbarium" apparently had the round fountain/planter thingy removed, although it's hard to tell since the camera angles are so tight?
I can't help but to look at the ceiling cross-beams and instantly notice that the fountain/planter doesn't connect there because it's missing.

I suppose since the deleted scene in EoT includes a suggestion that there are two identical round rooms side by side, we could fudge and say one is the rec room and one is the herbarium, thereby salvaging at least the spirit of MJ's intent if not the literal execution?
That was my original idea, too, but the missing fountain-planter of the Herbarium, which is there in the "mirror shots" in both ET and CL, suggests differently.

I think to salvage the spirit of MJ we should consider the possibility that the Herbarium circular room from TB instead connects to the living plants botany section featured in "The Man Trap". YMMV.

Bob
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Old August 18 2013, 08:51 PM   #40
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Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
They can all be found at trekcore, the one I'm thinking of is the perspective or elevation view of the round rec room with the caption "recreation room".
I see. But that sketch only shows the "recreation room" with a water sprinkling fountain. You seemed to suggest there was a reference to the Herbarium.
No, sorry for the confusion. My point was that the redress of the round “recreation room” set in “ITITNB” has led to some confusion concerning what the sketch you posted upthread really shows?

Notice only the rectangular right side of the sketch is labeled “Herbarium” directly under that portion of the sketch with a big arrow drawn from only that portion of the sketch down to the word “Herbarium”. And in addition there are several other sketches also labeled “Herbarium” that, once again, only show that rectangular right portion of the two-sided set that MJ originally intended to build. To me, this is clear evidence that only that right side was intended to be the “herbarium”, not the whole two part set, as some seem to think, based evidently, on the redress from “ITITNB”.

In addition, the other sketch I mentioned, and which you linked to above, clearly labels the round room seen in other episodes, as the “Recreation Room”, distinguishing it as a separately purposed facility from the adjoining “herbarium” as seen in the sketch you posted earlier. I think the only reason MJ didn’t label the left round portion of his set sketch as “Recreation Room” is simply because, at this point he was more interested in the details for the right “Herbarium” side, which, unfortunately was never built and they made do with just the redress of the round “Recreation Room” side?

IOW’s, I think the two part set was originally intended as part of the elaborate overall “exotic entertainment center” mentioned in TMoST, and just got whittled down to what we got.

In addition to the "large recreation area" which undoubtedly referred to the set under discussion, TMoST also mentions an "exotic entertainment center" and other things besides, which I take to be interconnected facilities, or at least side by side?
It is my understanding that "exotic entertainment center" referred to the holoroom, we finally saw in TAS.
Agreed, but they are not mutually exclusive.

And yes, this "Herbarium" apparently had the round fountain/planter thingy removed, although it's hard to tell since the camera angles are so tight?
I can't help but to look at the ceiling cross-beams and instantly notice that the fountain/planter doesn't connect there because it's missing
Yes, too bad they didn’t think to move it out of camera range when they filmed the mirror shot over Nimoy’s shoulder in “EoT”, to at least suggest some differences, but oh well. In any event, the tight camera angles in “ITITNB” give us a bit of a fudge factor IMHO.

I suppose since the deleted scene in EoT includes a suggestion that there are two identical round rooms side by side, we could fudge and say one is the rec room and one is the herbarium, thereby salvaging at least the spirit of MJ's intent if not the literal execution?
That was my original idea, too, but the missing fountain-planter of the Herbarium, which is there in the "mirror shots" in both ET and CL, suggests differently.
Yes, but I’m not as literal as you are, and I figure since it’s a deleted scene anyway, it gives us a little more wiggle room? And I’m not aware of any mirror shots in “CL”?

I think to salvage the spirit of MJ we should consider the possibility that the Herbarium circular room from TB instead connects to the living plants botany section featured in "The Man Trap". YMMV.

Bob

That’s a possibility, but I tend to think of “TMT” set/facility as the Botany Lab which is primarily for research, as opposed to the Herbarium which is as much for “R/R” as anything else.
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Old August 18 2013, 09:37 PM   #41
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Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?

TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
To me, this is clear evidence that only that right side was intended to be the “herbarium”, not the whole two part set, as some seem to think, based evidently, on the redress from “ITITNB”.
I see your point. Upon re-examination I felt it interesting to notice that the floor plan sketch I provided reveals the fountain-planter (a rec room exclusive!) in the middle of the circular room which had gone missing in TB.

Here is where it gets interesting, IMHO. The floor plan sketch was apparently created after an early draft of the script. It still features the fountain-planter but this looks odd in an area - according to the script - that's devoted to research and not to recreation.

The disappearance of the fountain-planter in the final episode may have been to tell us this is not the recreation room and/or that this is a restricted research and not R&R area.

TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
And I’m not aware of any mirror shots in “CL”?
That would be this one, I didn't mean "flopped" (side inverted). Apparently, someone remembered that they had done that in ET to give the room extra depth by simply repositioning the actor in the opposite spot.

Both rec room scenes (ET and CL) suggest the rec room with the fountain-planter to be connected to another room with a fountain-planter (well, hopefully the other fountain would sprinkle water ).

Bob
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Old August 18 2013, 10:34 PM   #42
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Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
That would be this one, I didn't mean "flopped" (side inverted). Apparently, someone remembered that they had done that in ET to give the room extra depth by simply repositioning the actor in the opposite spot.
FYI, most "flops" are done to correct eyeline and directional continuity problems. You are supposing it was an intentional technique, but chances are it was an editorial fix.
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Old August 18 2013, 10:49 PM   #43
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Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
And I’m not aware of any mirror shots in “CL”?
That would be this one, I didn't mean "flopped" (side inverted). Apparently, someone remembered that they had done that in ET to give the room extra depth by simply repositioning the actor in the opposite spot.
Hmm, I guess I'll have to rewatch the episode, because that pic by itself doesn't tell me whether there is an identical foreground matching the background. Did the scene switch back and forth between multiple close ups of people facing each other, the way it did in the "EoT" deleted scene?
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Old August 18 2013, 10:56 PM   #44
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Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?

Maurice wrote: View Post
You are supposing it was an intentional technique, but chances are it was an editorial fix.
It was an intentional technique:

In ET they first made a wide shot of Nimoy and his lyra facing the fountain-planter and the tanning lady on the (oddly elevated!) sitting bench.

Next they made Nimoy get up and change position and made a close-up shot of him with the fountain and the sitting bench at his back.

In the editing room the footage was combined to create the illusion of two circular rooms separated only by the food synthesizer and intercom corridor.

The same technique was applied in CL.

Bob
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Old August 19 2013, 01:34 AM   #45
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Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
You are supposing it was an intentional technique, but chances are it was an editorial fix.
It was an intentional technique:
Sorry, I misread upthread. You had qualified your statement upthread by saying you were using "flopped" not in the tradition sense, and I misread that statement. The term "flopped" really has only one meaning in film. What you're talking about is "cheating" a setup to imply a larger set than actually exists.

I assume CL means And the Children Shall Lead? ATCSL would be clearer.
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