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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old August 18 2013, 07:38 AM   #136
Harvey
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Well aware of Trek Core -- they have been kind enough to let me use I ages from their site on my blog. Couldn't find Hyde in their screen captures, and couldn't find him scrubbing through the episode on Netflix,but it is getting late and my eyes are tired.
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Old August 18 2013, 08:59 AM   #137
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

This is not a trivial argument. It's about the principle of the thing.

Frankly, given this kind of stuff, I wouldn't blame the Star Trek History site if it stopped posting material entirely. Why do the hard work of restoring these photos if someone can just swipe them and use them in a commercial product, no matter if it's going to make a profit or not. You just don't TAKE the hard work done by other people and use it as you see fit.

And that's my last post in this topic as I'm through wasting time with the apologists here who brush this off.
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Old August 18 2013, 04:26 PM   #138
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Harvey wrote: View Post
Changing gears a bit for the moment, the book claims (pg.184) that Bruce Hyde (Lt. Riley) can be seen at the helm in 'The Man Trap' in a pick-up shot taken during 'The Naked Time.' Can anyone confirm this with a screencap?
Edit: Nope, I was wrong, I looked at the wrong episode. If he's in The Man Trap sitting at the helm as the book states, you can't see him in that scene; the camera never pans over that far.

Last edited by Racer_X; August 18 2013 at 05:36 PM. Reason: Referenced incorrect Trekcore episode screengrab
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Old August 18 2013, 04:38 PM   #139
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

The filename says that's a screenshot from The Naked Time.
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Old August 18 2013, 05:33 PM   #140
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Oops, you're right, I looked at the wrong episode, my bad. So I just watched that scene of The Man Trap that the book says Bruce Hyde is at the helm, but they never show the helm, only the navigator - which is probably why the book makes it sound like a revelation, as we couldn't see him anyway.
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Old August 18 2013, 05:56 PM   #141
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Could Hyde have been in those stockshots of the viewscreen from Kirk's position, where Sulu looks back at the camera? Though I think Robert Justman said the navigator position was occupied by an extra (Bill Blackburn maybe).
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Old August 18 2013, 06:09 PM   #142
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Melakon wrote: View Post
Could Hyde have been in those stockshots of the viewscreen from Kirk's position, where Sulu looks back at the camera? Though I think Robert Justman said the navigator position was occupied by an extra (Bill Blackburn maybe).
I think the stock footage over-the-shoulder viewscreen shots were taken during "The Corbomite Maneuver." You can see the flashing blue glow from Balok's cube being reflected on the surface of the Helm/Navigation console.
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Old August 18 2013, 06:12 PM   #143
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Maurice wrote: View Post
This is not a trivial argument. It's about the principle of the thing.

Frankly, given this kind of stuff, I wouldn't blame the Star Trek History site if it stopped posting material entirely. Why do the hard work of restoring these photos if someone can just swipe them and use them in a commercial product, no matter if it's going to make a profit or not. You just don't TAKE the hard work done by other people and use it as you see fit.

And that's my last post in this topic as I'm through wasting time with the apologists here who brush this off.
You are SO wrong about this. As was said, startrekhistory.com does NOT own these images and was relying on fair use laws to show them on their site. So this publisher is completely entitled to behave the same way. Restoring a photo to its original appearance in the '60s doesn't give anybody special ownership rights; no doubt the book editors / photography team also worked with the pics in PhotoShop - if you read some of the Amazon comments. That could be just as hard work. And it's obvious to most people that putting tiny black and white photos in the book is hardly exploiting them.
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Old August 18 2013, 06:29 PM   #144
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

stcanada29 wrote: View Post

You are SO wrong about this. As was said, startrekhistory.com does NOT own these images and was relying on fair use laws to show them on their site. So this publisher is completely entitled to behave the same way. Restoring a photo to its original appearance in the '60s doesn't give anybody special ownership rights; no doubt the book editors / photography team also worked with the pics in PhotoShop - if you read some of the Amazon comments. That could be just as hard work. And it's obvious to most people that putting tiny black and white photos in the book is hardly exploiting them.
For me, it's not about whether it's legal or not. It's about if I was in that situation and did the work, would I want to be treated the same way? I wouldn't.

YMMV.
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Old August 18 2013, 06:39 PM   #145
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

BillJ wrote: View Post
stcanada29 wrote: View Post

You are SO wrong about this. As was said, startrekhistory.com does NOT own these images and was relying on fair use laws to show them on their site. So this publisher is completely entitled to behave the same way. Restoring a photo to its original appearance in the '60s doesn't give anybody special ownership rights; no doubt the book editors / photography team also worked with the pics in PhotoShop - if you read some of the Amazon comments. That could be just as hard work. And it's obvious to most people that putting tiny black and white photos in the book is hardly exploiting them.
For me, it's not about whether it's legal or not. It's about if I was in that situation and did the work, would I want to be treated the same way? I wouldn't.

YMMV.
But it does seem to me that you are taking things to a horrible extreme. You're saying if one guy fixes some scratches/blemishes on a photo he doesn't own -- no one else in the world can reprint that same image. Even if that same photo was printed decades earlier in different magazines or sold in multiple copies? So it is absolutely not unique. And what if someone else does more repair / rework on it ... or changes it from color to B&W ... the next guy is not allowed to do anything with it because one person fixed a scratch? It's clear the publisher reworked all of the images ... they are no longer in color and they say they also spent alot of time with them in PhotoShop. And I've seen some of these same photos on many sites around the net and in old books and magazines printed long ago. I suspect some are from startrekhistory but could just as easily have originated elsewhere or from identical paper photos or other film clips.
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Old August 18 2013, 06:46 PM   #146
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

stcanada29 wrote: View Post

But it does seem to me that you are taking things to a horrible extreme.
It's a horrible extreme to want to be asked before you appropriate my work for a project you're doing? We seem to have different definitions of the word 'extreme'.

Why didn't they simply find their own photos and do their own restoration work?
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Old August 18 2013, 06:51 PM   #147
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Racer_X wrote: View Post
Oops, you're right, I looked at the wrong episode, my bad. So I just watched that scene of The Man Trap that the book says Bruce Hyde is at the helm, but they never show the helm, only the navigator - which is probably why the book makes it sound like a revelation, as we couldn't see him anyway.
The two times the book mentions this:

The second scene -- Kirk's first visit to the bridge in this episode -- features Bruce Hyde (as Lt. Kevin Riley) at the helm, a character introduced in the next episode. (p.173)

We were given a glimpse of Lt. Kevin Riley in "The Man Trap," sitting at the helm, but with no dialogue (that shot was actually taken during the filming of this episode as a "pick-up"). (p.184)
I think the book is simply wrong about this. As you indicate, the scene in question never shows us the helm station, only the navigator. I think the author simply mistook Budd Albright for Bruce Hyde.

It can't be that Hyde was sitting out of frame, unless the author is using words like "glimpse" and "shot" rather lazily.

The most interesting thing in this book is the release of the Nielsen ratings, but I've noticed (up to page 222) that even those are inconsistent. For "Balance of Terror," for example, the author claims that Star Trek won its timeslot against CBS' Thursday Night Movie, but the numbers indicate CBS actually had the bigger share. The author has also (thus far) left out some important details such as the NBC's "sneak preview" airing strategy with "The Man Trap." He's also pointed to the success of the series in summer reruns several times as indicative of the program's rating success, although the Solow/Justman book indicated that the series did well during the summer, because it attracted viewers who had missed it during the regular season.

There's a lot of great information in the book, especially if you haven't seen the UCLA files, but thus far I'm not impressed by the way it is presented and/or organized.
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Old August 18 2013, 06:55 PM   #148
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

stcanada29 wrote: View Post
You're saying if one guy fixes some scratches/blemishes on a photo he doesn't own -- no one else in the world can reprint that same image. Even if that same photo was printed decades earlier in different magazines or sold in multiple copies? So it is absolutely not unique. And what if someone else does more repair / rework on it ... or changes it from color to B&W ... the next guy is not allowed to do anything with it because one person fixed a scratch? It's clear the publisher reworked all of the images ... they are no longer in color and they say they also spent alot of time with them in PhotoShop. And I've seen some of these same photos on many sites around the net and in old books and magazines printed long ago. I suspect some are from startrekhistory but could just as easily have originated elsewhere or from identical paper photos or other film clips.
The restoration work of Star Trek History goes above and beyond one person fixing a single scratch. This is plainly demonstrated on their website.

If Jacobs Brown Press had used the same raw images (i.e. the Lincoln Enterprises frames) and done their own restoration work, I'd really have no problem with their efforts. But that's not what they did; instead, they (or Gurian) pilfered the restored images from Star Trek History (and birdofthegalaxy) and used them in the book.
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Old August 18 2013, 06:59 PM   #149
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I think it's possible that StarTrekHistory was not, in fact, relying on "Fair Use." I think they cleverly avoided the issue of rights and ownership and public domain and fair use and other legal mumbo jumbo by forgoing any kind of revenue from these images entirely--whoever actually owns them even after their restoration work. I think their willingness to not derive any revenue of any kind speaks highly of their scholarship and generosity.

And then comes along someone who is not willing to avoid the issue of rights and ownership and public domain and fair use and other legal mumbo jumbo and is not willing to forgo any kind of revenue from these images. Along comes someone who asserts that these images, whosever they actually are, can be shared with people in order to generate revenue. They've decided to exploit these images, rather than studiously avoiding that exploitation. I can understand StarTrekHisotry.com's frustration at not having monetized these images--and then have this project come along and do exactly that--and with the very same images--regardless of the provenance of the images.

Of course, if these images were not actually independently obtained by the collector and were simply harvested from others' restoration efforts, I can doubly understand their frustration. It would be interesting to learn if the collector of these images for this project is actually able and/or willing to produce the original, unrestored clips in some way. Are they still in the collector's possession? Or does the collector only have the restorations at this point? It would also be interesting to know if the collector was compensated in any way by the publisher for all these images.

Whatever the full story is here--wherever the images came from, and whatever money was changing hands--I do know that this aspect of the These Are the Voyages project sure has become an albatross around the neck of the publisher.

stcanada29 wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
This is not a trivial argument. It's about the principle of the thing.

Frankly, given this kind of stuff, I wouldn't blame the Star Trek History site if it stopped posting material entirely. Why do the hard work of restoring these photos if someone can just swipe them and use them in a commercial product, no matter if it's going to make a profit or not. You just don't TAKE the hard work done by other people and use it as you see fit.

And that's my last post in this topic as I'm through wasting time with the apologists here who brush this off.
You are SO wrong about this. As was said, startrekhistory.com does NOT own these images and was relying on fair use laws to show them on their site. So this publisher is completely entitled to behave the same way. Restoring a photo to its original appearance in the '60s doesn't give anybody special ownership rights; no doubt the book editors / photography team also worked with the pics in PhotoShop - if you read some of the Amazon comments. That could be just as hard work. And it's obvious to most people that putting tiny black and white photos in the book is hardly exploiting them.
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Old August 18 2013, 07:05 PM   #150
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Is stcanada29 connected to this book somehow? Every post he/she has made since joining the board has been in this thread.
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