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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old August 16 2013, 06:19 PM   #91
trevanian
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I'm leaving word on the ilmfan and bondandbeyond site (latter has dedicated trek fans) now.

I can't remember my login for amazon ... can we put a link to this discussion in on their POST A REVIEW function for the book?
Or at least alert everybody to this issue?
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Old August 16 2013, 06:41 PM   #92
mb22
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Here is one comment.
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Old August 16 2013, 07:42 PM   #93
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

If this is the Star Trek BIBLE, then all the author did was take some snap shots of Da Vinci's Sistine Chapel. I can live with that, just ordered the book. Looks too good to quibble over the rights of pictures taken by others decades ago.
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Old August 16 2013, 08:34 PM   #94
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

omnirad wrote: View Post
Looks too good to quibble over the rights of pictures taken by others decades ago.
It's not about the rights of pictures taken decades ago. They took pictures that someone took the time to restore and used them without credit or compensation to that person.

No sale.
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Old August 17 2013, 12:44 AM   #95
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Whatever people decide to do, they decide to do. I figure, get the info out there and let people decide, but don't obscure the truth.
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Old August 17 2013, 01:23 AM   #96
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I can't comment on the literary content of the book. (I don't have a copy and I'm unlikely to get one.) But if people are clamoring to get this book because of all the great pictures it contains, it should be known that all the pictures are already "out there" and have been for years. I can't comment too informedly on the provenence of the pictures, but I hear StarTrekHistory has applied certain subtle "tells" to their restored pictures. But whatever their provenence actually is--illegal, unethical, or perfectly innocent--there's actually really nothing new to be had. Save your money and go to the StarTrekHistory web site or the "birdofthegalaxy" Flickr page and just print out the very same images.
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Old August 17 2013, 01:37 AM   #97
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I'll mention this in my review, but the worst part about the picture fiasco is that their quality in the book is so mediocre. The pictures are small, black and white, and the quality of the printing is, frankly, bad. They hardly measure up to the numerous pictures in the Solow/Justman book, either in size or in quality. The whole thing might as well have gone without them, and moved a few more copies.
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Old August 17 2013, 04:06 AM   #98
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

After reading the excerpt from this book on "Shore Leave", with the detailed information on the shooting schedule and interviews with the guest stars, I don't think 'pictures' are the focus. There are plenty of coffee table picture books with rare photos available if that's what you are looking for. This is a written history of our favorite TV show. That's what I'm buying!
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Old August 17 2013, 05:08 AM   #99
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

trevanian wrote: View Post
plynch wrote: View Post
I was wondering about the transformative issue, but I didn't think simply restoring a clip would transform it. This mattered with my book: since I was taking quotes from previous works but stitching them into something new, it is ok.
that's something I wondered about with those James Van Hise 'books' on Trek, where he grabs a chunk from CFQ here, followed by a chunk from CINEFEX there, and some AMERICAN CINEMATOGRAPHER, sometimes using quotes, often summarizing author's text. I remember on the title page there was some declaration about the nature of the book that presumably protected it against charges of copyright infringement, but I couldn't figure out how that worked.

Van Hise grabbed stuff that was very author-specific ... for example, from the TUC Cinefex, he pretty much reprinted my own line about Chang's eyepiece being only parted bolted in where I (in maybe the only instance I ever managed to do this and have it survive into print) managed to get a 'funny' into the magazine) say the effect is a klingon with a screw loose. That's not what any of the interviewees told me, so it isn't a part of TREK history, just an author's observation, which seems like it should be more sacrosanct.

Ditto for this godawful STAR WARS history book called EMPIRE BUILDING from some entity called carol press (I think that is what it was called, I tore it in thirds and threw it away long ago.)
They'd take stuff out of context, introduce errors, and still basically just be retyping other folks' work for chapters on end.

I used to flag these for the magazine when I worked there and came across them, but I think all they ever did was send 'cease & desist' letters with no weight behind them.

Maybe everybody thinks this is just like music sampling (another thing that has puzzled me for ... well, for decades now), but again I don't think that makes it right by any means.
There is no hard and fast "fair use" rule for using others' words, though you will sometimes see a 250-words-per-excerpt rule of thumb. And there are various and conflicting court decisions, naturally. People discern a four-part "test" that seems to be a predictor of whether something will be held to be fair use. For sure, the re-user should not just lift an excerpt and say, here is what so and so said in Cinefex and reprint a huge chunk. It needs to be excerpts interwoven with his or her prose to illustrate or make a point. Several times I broke up an excerpt from Louis Armstrong's memoirs and discussed or commented, just to be on the safe side. Transformative, in other words.

Very importantly, a re-user shouldn't hurt your ability to make money from your words.

As I prepared to publish, I spoke to authors of books similar to mine (historical/biographical) where quoting is necessary. I wanted to do things above board anyway, but one told me if you lose a copyright infringement suit, you can forfeit your revenue, not just profits. In your case, or the magazine's, you as an aggrieved party unfortunately have to go to the time, trouble, and effort of hiring an attorney and bringing a challenge. Word stealers know this is not too likely, I suppose.
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Old August 17 2013, 05:29 AM   #100
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Well, the information in the book is fricking amazing. I'm learning so much new information and some of it is shocking. Like the ratings.

According to the information unearthed here, Star Trek was NOT a ratings failure when it first aired. In fact, the premiere was HUGE; the first episode alone captured 47% of the viewing public! It remained in the top 40 throughout it's first season and often won it's time slot. It easily beat many shows always believed more successful, such as Batman, The Fugitive, Lost in Space and others (it's immediate contemporary - The Time Tunnel - was 20 positions lower than Trek). Why it was considered a candidate for cancellation isn't touched upon until the second volume, but my guess is that it was because the series was a ridiculously expensive series for the cash strapped Desilu studios to produce and they were in way over their heads. So the whole "Star Trek was a flop" thing was BS. It may have lost viewers later, but during its freshman season, it was indeed doing well.

I'll let others sort out the issues of the pictures. The info is great and even disproves a few things in Solow and Justman's book. You don't think you'll lean anything new? Think again.
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Old August 17 2013, 06:12 AM   #101
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

BillJ wrote: View Post
It's not about the rights of pictures taken decades ago. They took pictures that someone took the time to restore and used them without credit or compensation to that person.

No sale.

I understand how big a favor the star-trek-history guy did us by restoring so many slides. But I'm pretty sure he has no enforceable claim of ownership for those images. CBS/Paramount owns the images, regardless of their condition. If CBS okayed the book, then the book is okay.

The thing is, Lincoln Enterprises in the 1970s sold all those transparencies illegally. Gene and Majel literally drove a truck onto the lot and stole the work prints from a studio vault. Then they cut them up in their kitchen and sold them by mail order.

Ironically, this little crime ended up rescuing tons of outtakes and behind the scenes images from certain destruction. Clips once scattered across the country by Lincoln Enterprises are now preserved on the Internet, so we're thankful it happened, but it was still illegal.

If someone stole the Mona Lisa, and I bought it and did some restoration work, I would not be the rightful owner of the Mona Lisa, my claims notwithstanding.
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Old August 17 2013, 07:34 AM   #102
Harvey
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
If CBS okayed the book, then the book is okay..
As an unlicensed book -- the back of which claims it "is not endorsed, sponsored, or affiliated with CBS Studios, Inc." -- I don't think CBS "okayed" anything.

As far as ownership of the images goes, Jacobs Brown Press has argued that they are in the public domain, not the property of CBS. Assuming this is true, I see no problem including the images themselves in the book. The problem is including the Star Trek History restorations.

To draw an example which I hope is apt (admittedly, I am no expert on copyright), the movie Charade is in the public domain, and anyone can release their version of it on home video. You couldn't release Criterion's restoration of the movie on home video, however.
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Old August 17 2013, 08:42 AM   #103
Maurice
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

From the excepts the writing is meh, although the information seems interesting.

But, again, I will not monetarily support someone who behaves in this fashion. It's offensive behavior to scoop up the hard work of others and use it for monetary gain.
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Old August 17 2013, 02:52 PM   #104
ZapBrannigan
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Maurice wrote: View Post
But, again, I will not monetarily support someone who behaves in this fashion. It's offensive behavior to scoop up the hard work of others and use it for monetary gain.
I don't have the book, but the author obviously did a great deal of work and research to write it.

From what I've gathered in this thread, the raved-about text content is what he's selling, while the photos are just minor window dressing and in no way the book's selling point.
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Old August 17 2013, 03:03 PM   #105
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I suppose we shouldn't get into how much we support those who steal (in some form or other) every day all in the name of everyday business.
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