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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old August 14 2013, 09:24 AM   #31
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Re: Doctor Who from the start (by a n00b)

^Cool, I think we broadly agree on a lot of those early Hartnell stories. I really disliked the historical ones, though. Some of them were quite hard-going. It's much better now; I hope to keep watching until the very end.

I finally finished up Tom Baker's seven seasons, and have written a summary, with my picks of best serials from his run (which were pretty hard to choose).

http://doctorwhofromthestart.wordpre...best-episodes/

A short break now, then I'll move onto the Davison era...
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Old August 14 2013, 12:57 PM   #32
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Re: Doctor Who from the start (by a n00b)

Not a bad summary, but the lack of mention for Talons and Genesis of the Daleks is kinda baffling. I thought those would be default must-see stories.
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Old August 15 2013, 09:49 AM   #33
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Re: Doctor Who from the start (by a n00b)

Yeah, as I mentioned in my GotD review, I found it a bit underwhelming after all the "hype". It basically introduces a face to what should be a faceless enemy, turning them into mindless drones, and retconning an origin story that worked perfectly well just being alluded to in the original Dalek serial, 'The Daleks'. That's why it didn't make my top spot, although I did still enjoy it.

Talons was ok but a bit racist.
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Old August 15 2013, 10:48 AM   #34
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Re: Doctor Who from the start (by a n00b)

Racist? I didn't think so at all. Because the villain's a Chinese? That doesn't preclude racism, that simply implies that everyone can be fooled, and the Chinese antagonist is actually played with a sympathetic light.

As for Genesis, it provided with the most tangible and important dilemma in the Doctor's life. As far as retcons go, its one of the best ones ones, and thats because it did introduce an iconic new villain, and it present the environment in which the Daleks were given birth into. Its a fascinating social study of the Kelads and the Thals, and a great character study for the Doctor and Davros, and honestly, one of the best serials of Old Who, ever.

In sharp contrast, The Leisure Hive is sheer crap. Its an overproduced piece of fluff, with very little story and that barely makes any sense. If it weren't for Tom Baker's charm and wit, it would've been even worse.
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Old August 15 2013, 11:27 AM   #35
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Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
Racist? I didn't think so at all. Because the villain's a Chinese?
Nah, more that he's played by an obviously English man, made up with false eyelids to look "a bit Chinese" and put on a "me so solly" type accent, while characters refer to him as "yellow", etc. I found it mildly uncomfortable in parts.

As for Genesis, I beg to differ. The plight of the Thals and the Kaleds was more effective when it was simply alluded to in the original story. Giving the Daleks a "master" was like giving the Borg a "Queen" - an unnecessary complication that essentially "de-fangs" them. The Doctor's dilemma over their fate is a brilliant moment, however; and Davros himself does have an excellent presence. As I say, I liked it a lot, just not as much as others.

Leisure Hive got in more on style and tone, I admit.
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Old August 15 2013, 11:34 AM   #36
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Re: Doctor Who from the start (by a n00b)

Yeah, but Leisure Hive is all style and no substance. Genesis's retcon on the Daleks origin presented with a palpable, potent, really powerful moral dilemma that has been, since then, the creative lynchpin for everything Who-related since. And, for good reason.
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"I am... most pleased to see again, Captain" Spock formally replied.
McCoy shook his head in disgust. "Oh, for crying out loud, Spock. Its been eighty years!"
"Seventy eight point four years, Doctor."

The Holy Three meet again, in The Return
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Old August 15 2013, 01:12 PM   #37
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Re: Doctor Who from the start (by a n00b)

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
Giving the Daleks a "master" was like giving the Borg a "Queen" - an unnecessary complication that essentially "de-fangs" them.
Possibly, but that's "Destiny of the Daleks"'s fault. In "Genesis", Davros was not the Daleks' master, he was their creator.
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Old August 15 2013, 01:15 PM   #38
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Re: Doctor Who from the start (by a n00b)

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
Start Wreck wrote: View Post
Giving the Daleks a "master" was like giving the Borg a "Queen" - an unnecessary complication that essentially "de-fangs" them.
Possibly, but that's "Destiny of the Daleks"'s fault. In "Genesis", Davros was not the Daleks' master, he was their creator.
Swish!

They did "kill" him at the end, after all.
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"Spock...?" Kirk said, whispering.
"I am... most pleased to see again, Captain" Spock formally replied.
McCoy shook his head in disgust. "Oh, for crying out loud, Spock. Its been eighty years!"
"Seventy eight point four years, Doctor."

The Holy Three meet again, in The Return
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Old August 15 2013, 03:08 PM   #39
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Re: Doctor Who from the start (by a n00b)

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
Start Wreck wrote: View Post
Giving the Daleks a "master" was like giving the Borg a "Queen" - an unnecessary complication that essentially "de-fangs" them.
Possibly, but that's "Destiny of the Daleks"'s fault. In "Genesis", Davros was not the Daleks' master, he was their creator.
Swish!

They did "kill" him at the end, after all.
Yea, there's been numerous references/instances where he has been abandoned by them or outright rebelled against (IE: Different Factions of Daleks, some not wanting anything to do with him). He was their Creator, and they look to him for "original thought" at times, but, being their "Master" is incredibly rare. More like Chief Strategist. Now, definitely Davros' goal is to be their master, but, things rarely go his way
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Old August 15 2013, 09:12 PM   #40
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Re: Doctor Who from the start (by a n00b)

My first exposure to the Daleks was "Genesis..." when my PBS affiliate started airing the Tom Baker serials in 1982, so you would assume that's how I would want my Daleks, as "created" monsters that rebel against their maker, Davros. But once I finally saw their original 1963 serial, I found I like that version best. Even as early as their second appearance, "The Dalek Invasion of Earth", thematically they had devolved into cliched "robo-nazis from outer space". In their first appearance, they were "tragic" characters, almost to be pitied. Let me explain.

With Davros we learn the Daleks were "created", even "programmed"; they had no choice in their fate. But according to "The Dead Planet", it was a gradual descent into "ugliness" of their own choosing. The Daleks were originally a learned people. Ironically, the Thals were the "villains". By their own admission, the Thals attacked the Daleks, waging a war that finally pressured the latter to perform the most desperate of acts, employ nuclear weapons. The bombs nearly destroyed both sides. The few surviving Thals retreated to their side of the planet and the remaining Daleks hunkered within the ruins of their cities.

Radiation took its toll and each successive generation suffered ever worsening mutations. The genetic "scarring" got so bad that they engineered machines to aid their crippled bodies, eventually resulting in static powered, mobile "iron lungs", the iconic "travel macines". Perhaps more tragically, The Daleks' collective psyches followed the path of their bodies, each new generation growing ever more fearful, outright paranoid that the dreaded Thals might eventually return to wage war again. When the Thals do return centuries later, they are in no position to fight (not until Ian motivates them). In fact, they are barely "hanging on". But do the Daleks see this? No, they have let fear and suspicion consume their every waking thought that their response to "exterminate" before they themselves can be exterminated.

But it didn't have to end like that. No one "programmed" the Daleks. They could have chosen diplomacy, negotiation. They had the technology; the Thals had a potential "cure". (Yeah, the drug had a lethal effect upon the Daleks, that's why I stated "potential".) But their "cold war" paranoia made them lash out, prompting the Thals to retaliate just as the Daleks feared they would.

So, from my perspective, those original Daleks were pitiful, "tragic" characters, and thus had more emotional depth than their later depictions.

Sincerely,

Bill
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Old August 15 2013, 11:57 PM   #41
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Re: Doctor Who from the start (by a n00b)

I like both origins, but I probably enjoyed Genisis more than The Daleks. But I haven't seen either of them in years, probably before Matt Smith even became the Doctor.

But one thing which always confused me about the daleks origins is does Genisis basically retcon or reboot the dead planet, or does something the timelords do create an alternate timeline? Or id the Davros saga just set before the dead planet, the when we see the dead planet, it's some time after Genisis?
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Old August 16 2013, 03:52 AM   #42
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Re: Doctor Who from the start (by a n00b)

Green Lantern wrote: View Post
I like both origins, but I probably enjoyed Genisis more than The Daleks. But I haven't seen either of them in years, probably before Matt Smith even became the Doctor.

But one thing which always confused me about the daleks origins is does Genisis basically retcon or reboot the dead planet, or does something the timelords do create an alternate timeline? Or id the Davros saga just set before the dead planet, the when we see the dead planet, it's some time after Genisis?
Genesis of the Daleks, would obviously be before Dead Planet. However, The Time War means any number of Contradictions/Retcons can simultaneously exist, especially amongst Daleks and Gallifreyans. The Great Intelligence going into The Doctor's Time Stream and changing his victories to defeats, and then Clara jumping in and striking back and reclaiming those victories, IMHO, was a visual representation for us of The Time (Except Clara merely used defensive strikes aimed to set things back on course, both The Daleks and Time Lords would be making offensive strikes in each other's histories to hurt each other)
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Old August 16 2013, 04:17 PM   #43
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Re: Doctor Who from the start (by a n00b)

Ah right. Really, I think Moffat's fucked up the Dales, almost if not beyond redemption. In Victory, he made them into the teletubby's personal toilets, and in Asylum, he magically bought back Skaro without any explanation, and also randomly gave us the Dalek Asylum. The concept of an asylum for daleks had more potential than most doctor who things, but 45 minutes was nowhere near long enough to fully explore it. All we got for 45 minutes was just rusty RTD daleks, Amy and Rory going through marriage issues, Clara Oswald being built up for series 7.2, and the doctor not taking the daleks seriously like 9, 10 or pretty much any other incarnation would have done. At the end of it, he just flew away from the daleks and pretty much for his entire incarnation let them get away with doing stuff, something which any other 10 incarnations of the doctor would have laid down the lives to sort out.

As soon as Moffat finally fucks off into a hole in the ground after series 8, maybe we can actually sort out the daleks again, and get rid of cybermen which look like plastic and are so powerful, it's pretty much impossible to write a decent episode for them.
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Old August 16 2013, 06:25 PM   #44
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Re: Doctor Who from the start (by a n00b)

Green Lantern wrote: View Post
Ah right. Really, I think Moffat's fucked up the Dales, almost if not beyond redemption.
He's not in charge of Emmerdale as well is he?! Does the man ever sleep?

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...and in Asylum, he magically bought back Skaro without any explanation...
There was never any statement that Skaro was inaccessible due to the Time War, like Gallifrey; that was a fan assumption. Its total destruction in Remembrance of the Daleks could have occurred at any point in time - we saw the Earth destroyed in The End of the World too, but that doesn't mean the show can't ever visit it again.
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Old August 16 2013, 07:15 PM   #45
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Re: Doctor Who from the start (by a n00b)

No, just Doctor Who and his true love that god awful Sherlock.

Good point. Maybe Davros there is from after the Stolen Earth. That's why only his head survives. But either way, I don't like having Skaro back unless we have a whole episode devoted to brining it back properly.

Then again, in remembrance, the Hand of Omega destroyed Skaro in 1963, so unless every Dalek story with Skaro is set before 1963, there's a continuity hole bigger than Moffat's ego.
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