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Old August 15 2013, 06:31 PM   #16
The Emissary
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

There is something very off about that list...

I understand VOY fans get annoyed that their show gets a lot of criticism, but a lot of it is not undue. The issue of Janeway breaking the Prime Directive wasn't just that she did it an insane amount of times. As you pointed out, all the captains break it or "bend" it from time to time. The issue was that Janeway was especially egregious about it in really twisted or flippant ways. I don't fully blame it on the Janeway character. A lot of it was the writers being inconsistent. One episode they needed her to be a firm by the book captain and another she had to be the "i don't respond well to bullies! Mr. Paris? Plot a course THROUGH their space!" type captain. It made her look extremely bi-polar.

One example I see not on your (or Memory Alpha's) list is Tuvix. He was a new and unique life form and she had him murdered. Yes, MURDERED. Even the EMH refused to go through the procedure because he knew he was killing a life form. I'm pretty sure going and out and seeking new life forms does not extent to killing them...

That list seems to include only examples were it was outright stated the Prime Directive was involved...
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Old August 15 2013, 06:36 PM   #17
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

The Emissary wrote: View Post
One example I see not on your (or Memory Alpha's) list is Tuvix. He was a new and unique life form and she had him murdered. Yes, MURDERED. Even the EMH refused to go through the procedure because he knew he was killing a life form. I'm pretty sure going and out and seeking new life forms does not extent to killing them.
Nope not even close. There is are whole threads devoted to this, you don't need to start a new one.
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Old August 15 2013, 07:07 PM   #18
The Emissary
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Brit wrote: View Post
The Emissary wrote: View Post
One example I see not on your (or Memory Alpha's) list is Tuvix. He was a new and unique life form and she had him murdered. Yes, MURDERED. Even the EMH refused to go through the procedure because he knew he was killing a life form. I'm pretty sure going and out and seeking new life forms does not extent to killing them.
Nope not even close. There is are whole threads devoted to this, you don't need to start a new one.
Um...I'm not "starting" a new thread. I'm talking about the issue of Janeway and the so called misconceptions she got on the issue of breaking the prime directive.

Even if you feel that it was one of those cases where she was justified in what she did or the ENT-D crew were justified in Pen Pals or (insert example here), it is an example.
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Old August 15 2013, 07:26 PM   #19
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

PICARD (to Q): Not at all. That's the last thing I would do. You, by definition, are part of our charter. Our mission is to go forth to seek out new and different life forms, and you certainly qualify as one of the most unique I've ever encountered. To learn about you is, frankly, provocative. But you're next of kin to chaos.
She abandoned her own children to a swamp, what did the great Kathryn Janeway care for any bassinets left on her doorstep by her kitchenrat?
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Old August 15 2013, 07:58 PM   #20
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

she did care, she tried her best with Q's son to help him for example
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Old August 15 2013, 08:00 PM   #21
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

The Emissary wrote: View Post
There is something very off about that list...

I understand VOY fans get annoyed that their show gets a lot of criticism, but a lot of it is not undue. The issue of Janeway breaking the Prime Directive wasn't just that she did it an insane amount of times. As you pointed out, all the captains break it or "bend" it from time to time. The issue was that Janeway was especially egregious about it in really twisted or flippant ways. I don't fully blame it on the Janeway character. A lot of it was the writers being inconsistent. One episode they needed her to be a firm by the book captain and another she had to be the "i don't respond well to bullies! Mr. Paris? Plot a course THROUGH their space!" type captain. It made her look extremely bi-polar.

One example I see not on your (or Memory Alpha's) list is Tuvix. He was a new and unique life form and she had him murdered. Yes, MURDERED. Even the EMH refused to go through the procedure because he knew he was killing a life form. I'm pretty sure going and out and seeking new life forms does not extent to killing them...

That list seems to include only examples were it was outright stated the Prime Directive was involved...
Tuvix was more of a moral issue than a prime directive. Killing him does not interfere with the development of any culture

the interesting thing I've noticed about people who claim that she broke the prime directive can either never give a list of all those times they claim it happened or they use their negative opinion of the show in general to twist events to make them suit their negative view point
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Old August 15 2013, 08:24 PM   #22
The Emissary
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

KaraBear wrote: View Post
The Emissary wrote: View Post
There is something very off about that list...

I understand VOY fans get annoyed that their show gets a lot of criticism, but a lot of it is not undue. The issue of Janeway breaking the Prime Directive wasn't just that she did it an insane amount of times. As you pointed out, all the captains break it or "bend" it from time to time. The issue was that Janeway was especially egregious about it in really twisted or flippant ways. I don't fully blame it on the Janeway character. A lot of it was the writers being inconsistent. One episode they needed her to be a firm by the book captain and another she had to be the "i don't respond well to bullies! Mr. Paris? Plot a course THROUGH their space!" type captain. It made her look extremely bi-polar.

One example I see not on your (or Memory Alpha's) list is Tuvix. He was a new and unique life form and she had him murdered. Yes, MURDERED. Even the EMH refused to go through the procedure because he knew he was killing a life form. I'm pretty sure going and out and seeking new life forms does not extent to killing them...

That list seems to include only examples were it was outright stated the Prime Directive was involved...
Tuvix was more of a moral issue than a prime directive. Killing him does not interfere with the development of any culture

the interesting thing I've noticed about people who claim that she broke the prime directive can either never give a list of all those times they claim it happened or they use their negative opinion of the show in general to twist events to make them suit their negative view point
The Prime Directive goes beyond interfering with alien cultural development. That's only one aspect to it.

I will definitely concede that at times they (all the shows) evoke the Prime Directive to try and make the episode more...shall we say...controversial? So it has been referred to in multiple circumstances (beyond a pre-warp society). It is hard to say what the Directive solely is.

I don't have a list off memory because I haven't seen the entire show in years. I did watch it from beginning to end and I know that the prime directive was broken more than that tiny list.

But if you're only applying it to pre-warp development manipulation. Then yes, Janeway only did that a few times....
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Old August 15 2013, 08:37 PM   #23
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

The Emissary wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
The Emissary wrote: View Post
There is something very off about that list...

I understand VOY fans get annoyed that their show gets a lot of criticism, but a lot of it is not undue. The issue of Janeway breaking the Prime Directive wasn't just that she did it an insane amount of times. As you pointed out, all the captains break it or "bend" it from time to time. The issue was that Janeway was especially egregious about it in really twisted or flippant ways. I don't fully blame it on the Janeway character. A lot of it was the writers being inconsistent. One episode they needed her to be a firm by the book captain and another she had to be the "i don't respond well to bullies! Mr. Paris? Plot a course THROUGH their space!" type captain. It made her look extremely bi-polar.

One example I see not on your (or Memory Alpha's) list is Tuvix. He was a new and unique life form and she had him murdered. Yes, MURDERED. Even the EMH refused to go through the procedure because he knew he was killing a life form. I'm pretty sure going and out and seeking new life forms does not extent to killing them...

That list seems to include only examples were it was outright stated the Prime Directive was involved...
Tuvix was more of a moral issue than a prime directive. Killing him does not interfere with the development of any culture

the interesting thing I've noticed about people who claim that she broke the prime directive can either never give a list of all those times they claim it happened or they use their negative opinion of the show in general to twist events to make them suit their negative view point
The Prime Directive goes beyond interfering with alien cultural development. That's only one aspect to it.

I will definitely concede that at times they (all the shows) evoke the Prime Directive to try and make the episode more...shall we say...controversial? So it has been referred to in multiple circumstances (beyond a pre-warp society). It is hard to say what the Directive solely is.

I don't have a list off memory because I haven't seen the entire show in years. I did watch it from beginning to end and I know that the prime directive was broken more than that tiny list.

But if you're only applying it to pre-warp development manipulation. Then yes, Janeway only did that a few times....
it's easy just to say she broke it, but that doesn't mean much if you can't say when she did it.
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Old August 15 2013, 08:48 PM   #24
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

anyway, getting the thread back on topic

another miconception that I've heard a lot is that Jennifer Lien didn't know she wasn't going to be in the show anymore until she read the script for The Gift

If you look at the credits for Scorpion part II she is listed as a guest star. That involves a different contract and different pay scale. So I'm sure at that point she was made aware. Plus I would guess she would also have realized that she wasn't in any of the season 4 promo material.
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Old August 15 2013, 08:56 PM   #25
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post

(Breaking the Prime Directive means that you are altering the balance of power or altering the development/evolution of a species by giving them information or technology which they are not ready for... Agreed?)

The Next Emanation. Kim is screaming as loud as he can "Your religion is stupid and make believe and you should quit it!" And that was to a prewarp civilization who thought he was a god.

False profits. The Ferengi say you have to send us back, or you've broken your Precious Prime Directive after those silly savages think that their gods have abandoned them. Suck it Hewman.

Jetrel. A war criminal who makes WMD for a living asks how Voyager's transporter works, and Kathryn pops the hood so he can get a good look.

State of Flux. Neelix asks why he should care if the kazon get hold of something as trivial as a transporter, and then Kathryn explains to him the balance of power and how that simple tool could cause empires to rise and fall if it afforded one side a significant tactical advantage the other did not, and that it was their highest law to make sure that idiot child races don't get an unfair leg up they have not earned.

Basics. Forced to share a planet with cavemen, Janeway is sharpening spears to murder them all, so that she can sleep soundly on a Golgotha of her own making.

Swarm. Aliens tell her to fuck off or they will kill her. Neelix agrees that he's heard about the corpses these people make when you cross their borders, and they you don't #### with them. So after she shits on their sovereign rights to govern their own space, she kills thousands of indigenousness soldiers trying to defend their homeland from a scurvy alien threat because they don't believe that she's as nice as she insists she is.

The Chute. Same deal as 30 days. You break alien laws you go to alien prison.

Distant Origin. Janeway wanted to derail 20 million years of history by existing. Religious fervour insisted that she be burnt and flushed to protect the sincerity of their reptile religion.

The Omega Directive. Aliens called her an asshole for not having any rules to curb her behaviour, like the Prime Directive, which had been rescinded for that particular mission because the fate of the entire galaxy to enjoy warp travel trumps the fate of any one's planets right to be a dick.

Demon. Caretaker wanted her baby, she said no. Q wanted her baby she said no. But these quicksilver SOBs ask for her DNA and she just bends over so that they can experience a radical fit of forced evolution that would never have taken place without her involvement... Although if the rest of the crew had not submitted, just imagine... If half the trillion trillion tons of Quicksilver on the Demon world turned into a googleplex Harrys and the other half turned into a similar numebr of Toms?

Think Tank. She gave slip stream technology to a terrible asshole who was going to use it to screw over a ridiculous amount of people. Trading technology to non proved species alters their technological development, even though she admitted in Flesh and Blood is that all they did was trade replicator technology for EVERYTHING they needed from anyone they met.

Dragons Teeth. They woke up all the Vadwaar, when it would have been more easier to put the one Vadwaar Seven woke up back to sleep. Janeway said that the rules were to keep them asleep, which means that she pussied out when she should have told the first guy that he shouldn't be awake and his well armed army should most definitely not also wake up either and she need amend Seven's blunder.

Memorial. She repaired the broken rape machine so that generation as yet unborn could continue to be raped for the next thousand years whether they wanted to be raped or not.

Flesh and Blood. Janeway gave away advanced technology that the hirogen used to save their species from extinction, by creating a slave race they could torture communally who were too powerful and threatened to destroy the Hirogen quicklier than the first extinction which they feared which put Janeway into the position that she felt compelled to act genocidally and destroy all the hirogenmade Holograms. This is about Janeway having children again if you didn't notice.

Friendship One... They fixed a biosphere on a planet full of assholes who killed Joe. They were stupid enough to destroy their biosphere once, so they'll do it again, Janeway broke the Prime Directive prolonging their death rattle just because she felt responsible since humans handed them the technology that destroyed their biosphere and they were too fricking weak to say "no".
Is there anyway to get these blurbs come up instead of the actual blurbs when I'm browsing episodes on Netflix? Because I like these a lot, lot better. Though I really do like the TOS Netflix blurb that mentions "a couple of redshirts."
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Old August 15 2013, 11:12 PM   #26
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

KaraBear wrote: View Post
Finn wrote: View Post
^The PD was broken more than that on Voyager
not according to memory alpha

but where else do you think it was broken
Swarm, probably
just checked- it was- they violated their laws by entering their space and killed those defending their territory

Blink of an Eye. Though they got there accidentally, it is still technically a violation. People get cited for violation of a policy or law even if it was by accident.


But the thing is there is more to the PD than what we know canonically, whatever that is. Janeway and her crew probably broke it often due to their predicament.
I'm sure there's a bit more.

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Old August 16 2013, 12:18 AM   #27
The Emissary
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

KaraBear wrote: View Post
it's easy just to say she broke it, but that doesn't mean much if you can't say when she did it.
I have a sneaking suspicion that even if I had presented such a list...you'd nitpick it and argue semantics (such as saying the PD only applies to pre-warp societies - when it doesn't).

One misconception I've noticed is VOY is cited as "ruining" the Borg because they were constantly destroying Cubes and the like. From what I recall, they never did that. Usually when the Borg popped up, they fled or had to use a creative way to beat them (ex. beaming a torpedo onto the sphere). I don't recall them blowing up Cubes (minus the time they used future tech).

The only thing I can recall that was sketchy was VOY taking on that Tactical Cube, but I don't remember if they destroyed it or not.
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Old August 16 2013, 12:34 AM   #28
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

In "Dark Frontier" (I think), they somehow beam a photon torpedo through Borg shields and detonated it. I've never figured out how they did that.
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Old August 16 2013, 12:40 AM   #29
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

The Emissary wrote: View Post
There is something very off about that list...

I understand VOY fans get annoyed that their show gets a lot of criticism, but a lot of it is not undue. The issue of Janeway breaking the Prime Directive wasn't just that she did it an insane amount of times. As you pointed out, all the captains break it or "bend" it from time to time. The issue was that Janeway was especially egregious about it in really twisted or flippant ways. I don't fully blame it on the Janeway character. A lot of it was the writers being inconsistent. One episode they needed her to be a firm by the book captain and another she had to be the "i don't respond well to bullies! Mr. Paris? Plot a course THROUGH their space!" type captain. It made her look extremely bi-polar.
This is one of the biggest critisims I've heared levelled against VOY. Now if they wanted her to be the book Captain fine, if they wanted her to be more of a loose cannon fine. If they wanted to show a progression from b the book to a more of do what I need to get my crew home fine. But pick one and run with it not fluctutate back and forth.

VOY's premise clearly indicated it should be a more serialised show, yet it was basically TNG 2.0 highly episodic. That isn't to say they never had continuity but they should have had more.

The ship seemed to look like it had just left Utopia PLanitia almost every week. No matter how much damage it had taken the previous week.

It was supposed to be resource poor but they seemed to have an endless supply of shuttles and they managed to manufacture not 1 but 2 Delta Flyers.

It was clearly stated in dialouge they couldn't replace the 38 Photon Torpedeos they had. Yet they fired more than that.

No Explantion given Not even lip service paid in a log entry.

Some characters showed almost zero growth between "Caretaker" and "Endgame"

As for critisims about overuse of time-travel maybe unfounded but perhaps that is down to perception, the previous Trek shows might have done similiar time-travel shows so there was nothing new there.

One nickname I've heard/seen used for VOY is TNG-lite. Which is basically saying that it's trying to emulate TNG but it's not as good.

But a lot comes down to what stories you like, what order you watched the ST shows I was one of the TOS-TNG-DSN-VOY-ENT crowd. Voyager could have been so much more had it dared to try but it didin't it decided to play safe. Yes some of that is know doubt down to network interferrence.
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Old August 16 2013, 12:40 AM   #30
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

KaraBear wrote: View Post
she did care, she tried her best with Q's son to help him for example
Q's kid q got into a huge amount of trouble because he crossed a line of space he shouldn't have that he was told not to and it pissed off an arbitrary alien species that wanted him to face alien justice for his alien crimes. This is the episode where Icheb hillllllllllllllariously says " Captain Janeway taught me to respect the laws of alien cultures!" The alien laws said that Icheb and q had to have their arms cut off and bleed out because they trespassed. It was death sentence. Janeway sent two children to their deaths because whimsy had her finally remember that other space governments have rights.

In comparison...

30 days.

Tom uses phontonic torpedoes like a terrorist to destroy an alien power station like a terrorist, throwing their culture ass over tea kettle as they're shit out of luck to have enough power any more to feed, clothe and heat the complete limits of their population who are terrified of the terrorist Tom Paris. Those aliens wanted to take Tom in for questioning, but Janeway ran. She ran for thirty days, while they chased her and shot at her, making the entire crew complicit with Terrorist Tom's terrorism.

Swarm.

Janeway trespassed, just the same as q and icheb trespassed. Exactly the same! The difference is that q submitted himself to be executed by stoopid over reactionary aliens and Janeway is a stoopid over reactionary alien who mass murdered 10's of thousands of brave patriots protecting frightened women and children from scum like this Federation captain trying to avoid her day in court. Seriously "Fuck the law I'm charming! Submit to my charm or die." This is the same ad hoc crap what she says in Counterpoint to Cashak "I'm not afraid of the prime directive because I can weasel my way out of any enquiry, trial or court-martial because the admiralty loves me. I am above the law! HA! Now, kiss me you sexy beast!" Look it up.

Prime Factors.

Her crew stole propriety technology from a species that should have been able to lob torpedoes at them for the next 50 thousand light years making her brawl with the kazon look like a disagreement with a bouncer at a strip club. Did they give it back and apologise? No. They ran. (Just compare that to Picard in Pegasus.) Sure she was duped by her Vulcan who thought he knew better, and he got a permanent mark in his record... Which hardly explains his promotion not much more than a year later. This was is the episode where she says that the Prime Directive means that they don't give away technology to ANYONE, and even though the sexy alien leader who wants to sniff her feet (not a good thing, he had such a weird seedy vibe.) says that he has exactly the same law which he thinks is just as important, even prime... But fuck him. Take want you want and fuck the consequences.

Back to Q squarred...

Icheb and q weren't allowed to fuck the consequences, they had to face the consequences, which was death... As if the godlings god father would have allowed that if he could have even died in the first place and despite the uniform q was wearing, not her problem... And icheb was riding on q's coattails, so he was probably 50/50.

Kathryn Janeway is not a nice person.
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